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Weapon Analysis - Flame Sword (by D-Man)

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:25 am
by D-Man
Flame Sword - From MM8
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Capacity: 32 (46 w/ E. Saver) Power: 0.7? (per frame) Type: Fire / Melee


Obtained from Sword Man, the Flame Sword follows a similar concept to the previous melee weapon Slash Claw by allowing the user to conjure a blade of fire from their hand and swing it directly in front of them. The Sword has a somewhat wide vertical range, allowing it to hit low-lying enemies like Crunchran, as well as things slightly above. A standing swing deals damage throughout most of its 15 frame animation, and should all of these hits connect, it's capable of dealing a maximum of 10 damage. Enemies with multiple parts, like Bunby Tank DX and Onbubuttan can be destroyed completely by a close swing of the Sword. Since the blade is made of fire, it can ignite TNT Blocks and Thorn Vines, thus removing them. It's also the only weapon capable of destroying the train-like Shupponpons. Non-solid enemy shots can be erased if they are hit. Flame Sword can still be swung even when climbing ladders, and has a higher rate of fire when doing so, but there are few moments where this is helpful.
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Like previous melee weapons, it's only effective at very close range. While the user can move during a midair swing, they are rooted in place if the weapon is used on the ground. Additionally, a midair swing deals a lower 4 damage if all hits connect. The individual hits of the Flame Sword are weak, so it's best to hit enemies near the beginning of the attack. Ladders cannot be grabbed until the attack is over.

Flame Sword returns in MMM, although it has fewer frames of animation, and deals a significantly lower 3 damage throughout its duration if used on the ground (1 per frame). It also loses the ability to erase certain bullets. The Sword has the same rate of fire regardless of where it's used. The midair swing has a wider vertical range than it used to, and it has a slightly longer duration when Bass uses it, with it potentially being able to deal a total of 6 damage. Also, if the Sword is swung in midair and the player lands on a solid surface, they will transition to a ground slash. A well-known exploit can be done using Bass; before the attack ends, double jump, and the Sword will be swung again at no additional energy cost. It can still light up flammable objects, which now extends to Oil Fires.

Against bosses, it can only hit once, since they have longer invincibility frames. What's most interesting is that if Hard Man stuns the player, the Flame Sword will stay out for the duration of the stun, since it's attached to the player (as discovered by 14Protoman).
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Taking these changes as well as the missing objects from MM8 into account, the Flame Sword loses some of its nifty attributes, and teeters between under and overpowered depending on which character wields it. Although, this could be part of its appeal towards makers, as they can use certain enemies and Character Capsules to further adjust its strength in a level.

Re: Weapon Analysis - Flame Sword (by D-Man)

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:23 pm
by 14Protoman
You will have to innovate this gif in 1.6, since kaona geeno and ice blocks are added and if the enemies of Blast Man are also added it will have more strengths

Re: Weapon Analysis - Flame Sword (by D-Man)

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:24 am
by DestroyerOfDestruction
Believe or not, the multi-hit concept actually comes from Mega Man 8.

Many have criticized Mega Man Maker's interpretation for doing few damage to the enemies due to being based in multiple hits, but that actually comes from the source material. In the original game, it may not destroy a Bunby Head if it is used to attack it distantly.

Originally, using the Flame Sword against a shielded object created sparks that showed said object resisting, but it doesn't delay the game like the Z-Saber in the PlayStation Mega Man X series.

Re: Weapon Analysis - Flame Sword (by D-Man)

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:02 am
by 14Protoman
Although it would have been better if your hitbox was at least 1.5 or 1.7 instead of just 1, because if not, it has little strength and it is dangerous to use it against almost all enemies.

Re: Weapon Analysis - Flame Sword (by D-Man)

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:19 pm
by DestroyerOfDestruction
14Protoman wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:02 am
Although it would have been better if your hitbox was at least 1.5 or 1.7 instead of just 1, because if not, it has little strength and it is dangerous to use it against almost all enemies.
Saying that it is dangerous against almost all enemies is an exaggeration, because there are a few enemies that have low HP or are fixed in an area.

Re: Weapon Analysis - Flame Sword (by D-Man)

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:27 pm
by 14Protoman
DestroyerOfDestruction wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:19 pm
14Protoman wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:02 am
Although it would have been better if your hitbox was at least 1.5 or 1.7 instead of just 1, because if not, it has little strength and it is dangerous to use it against almost all enemies.
Saying that it is dangerous against almost all enemies is an exaggeration, because there are a few enemies that have low HP or are fixed in an area.
Yes, but many of them can shoot or walk fast.

Re: Weapon Analysis - Flame Sword (by D-Man)

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:36 pm
by Royalguard
D-Man wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:25 am
A well-known exploit can be done using Bass; before the attack ends, double jump, and the Sword will be swung again at no additional energy cost.
Sounds like a glitch, that hopefully should be patched out in future builds.

I'm pretty sure the way Bass' Double Jump ability works, it that it restarts Bass' "jump state" from the beginning when activated,

Using this glitch, Bass' Double Jump ability seems like it instead restarts Bass' "aerial sword swing state" from the beginning when activated, which is probably not intended by the developers.

The Double Jump ability activation should override Bass' current "aerial sword swing state" and switch it immediately to "jump state".

Re: Weapon Analysis - Flame Sword (by D-Man)

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:35 pm
by D-Man
Just one more.

One more, and I'll put this series on hiatus until the update comes. And then I can actually focus on bringing the Fan Challenges section back to life.

Re: Weapon Analysis - Flame Sword (by D-Man)

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:20 pm
by D-Man
Royalguard wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:36 pm
D-Man wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:25 am
A well-known exploit can be done using Bass; before the attack ends, double jump, and the Sword will be swung again at no additional energy cost.
Sounds like a glitch, that hopefully should be patched out in future builds.

I'm pretty sure the way Bass' Double Jump ability works, it that it restarts Bass' "jump state" from the beginning when activated,

Using this glitch, Bass' Double Jump ability seems like it instead restarts Bass' "aerial sword swing state" from the beginning when activated, which is probably not intended by the developers.

The Double Jump ability activation should override Bass' current "aerial sword swing state" and switch it immediately to "jump state".
I reported this finding to the #bug-reports channel on the Discord, but they seem to claim that it's "not a bug". I wonder why they would intentionally make a weapon more powerful based on the character who wields it. What benefit does that give to the makers?

Re: Weapon Analysis - Flame Sword (by D-Man)

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:08 pm
by Royalguard
D-Man wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:20 pm
Royalguard wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:36 pm
D-Man wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:25 am
A well-known exploit can be done using Bass; before the attack ends, double jump, and the Sword will be swung again at no additional energy cost.
Sounds like a glitch, that hopefully should be patched out in future builds.

I'm pretty sure the way Bass' Double Jump ability works, it that it restarts Bass' "jump state" from the beginning when activated,

Using this glitch, Bass' Double Jump ability seems like it instead restarts Bass' "aerial sword swing state" from the beginning when activated, which is probably not intended by the developers.

The Double Jump ability activation should override Bass' current "aerial sword swing state" and switch it immediately to "jump state".
I reported this finding to the #bug-reports channel on the Discord, but they seem to claim that it's "not a bug". I wonder why they would intentionally make a weapon more powerful based on the character who wields it. What benefit does that give to the makers?
Wait, that isn't a bug? :shock:

I'm pretty sure this is the only weapon used by all character to function drastically different between characters.

Then again, I do recall in the past that it was mentioned that Bass' Shine sprites where made larger to fit his larger character sprites, but I don't know if that also included modifying Shine's hitbox size. Someone might want to test that at some point.