What I presume is Gemini Man's problem to adapt in the game

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DestroyerOfDestruction
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What I presume is Gemini Man's problem to adapt in the game

Post by DestroyerOfDestruction » Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:58 am

I made an experiment with Gemini Man in the Megamix Engine, since Wrecking ported his code from a previous version of the MAGMML engine. WHat I see is that if he cannot return to its original point, he gets stuck in the same place and starts jumping. If the second Gemini was destroyed, he still can use the Gemini Laser, but

I am considering reprogramming him to make him more versatile, but it's not guaranteed I will do it or that the MMM team will take my idea. If I do, it would be a personal project and nothing else.

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Re: What I presume is Gemini Man's problem to adapt in the game

Post by Royalguard » Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:24 am

Interesting.

From the looks of this, the Gemini Man recreation's jump AI being triggered when colliding with something resembling a wall, I can see resemblance to Flash Man's jump AI, though for whatever reason, this Gemini Man doesn't carry his horizontal momentum when jumping at walls, where Flash Man does.

Between these short hops when colliding with walls in the first phase of this recreation being similar to Flash Man, and jumping when the player presses the shoot button in the second phase also being similar to Flash Man, is Gemini Man's AI nothing more than a modified Flash Man AI? :shock:

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Re: What I presume is Gemini Man's problem to adapt in the game

Post by SMAAASH!!! Puppy » Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:18 pm

Royalguard wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:24 am
Interesting.

From the looks of this, the Gemini Man recreation's jump AI being triggered when colliding with something resembling a wall, I can see resemblance to Flash Man's jump AI, though for whatever reason, this Gemini Man doesn't carry his horizontal momentum when jumping at walls, where Flash Man does.

Between these short hops when colliding with walls in the first phase of this recreation being similar to Flash Man, and jumping when the player presses the shoot button in the second phase also being similar to Flash Man, is Gemini Man's AI nothing more than a modified Flash Man AI? :shock:
I won't get my hopes up, but this could mean it'd be pretty simple to fix him, and in a way that doesn't change much about his fight. Give him the forward momentum back, and he'll be able to travel across uneven floors that are two blocks high. If the devs wish, they can up that to three so that Gemini Man can go wherever the player can without the use of objects. The issue comes when Gemini Man can't reach the other side of the room. The easiest solution would likely be to check if he went anywhere (horizontally speaking) after his initial hop, and if he didn't, then he does his screen-spanning jump to the other side much like a Walking Bomb.

There are obviously other bugs you'd need to work out, and these changes would still allow him to get ganked by uneven ceilings, but theoretically, Gemini Man could work in Mega Man Maker's environment.

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Re: What I presume is Gemini Man's problem to adapt in the game

Post by LeonardMan » Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:04 pm

Royalguard wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:24 am
is Gemini Man's AI nothing more than a modified Flash Man AI?
That makes sense considering Gemini Man was always sort of an expy of Flash Man to begin with. A similar "mysterious crystal" themed stage, a green brick background to his boss room just like Flash Man's, and the resident Doc Robot copies Flash Man as well!

Though it seems odd to me, if the problem was so simple and had such a simple solution, why didn't the devs themselves figure out how to fix it already? I believe there's probably more to it. Possibly he also needs a big open space above him (just like Sword Man) for him to make that big jump, and as Smash Puppy pointed out, he could still get ganked by a custom ceiling.

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Re: What I presume is Gemini Man's problem to adapt in the game

Post by SMAAASH!!! Puppy » Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:42 pm

LeonardMan wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:04 pm
Possibly he also needs a big open space above him (just like Sword Man) for him to make that big jump, and as Smash Puppy pointed out, he could still get ganked by a custom ceiling.
I should clarify that hitting a wall during his jump won't likely ruin his AI pattern; just cause the jump to not go as far. It makes him slightly less flexible (the obstruction would stop him from going from wall to wall which would make the fight a little easier, as you'd only have to worry about his shots), but he'd still work under these conditions during phase 1. Same with a low ceiling. His AI would likely work the same, but you'd either have to worry about avoiding both the jumping Gemini Man and running Gemini Man, or both would be unavoidable. You wouldn't likely want a ceiling that low for most Robot Masters anyway (Stone Man in particular gets stuck in crevices like that).

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Re: What I presume is Gemini Man's problem to adapt in the game

Post by Royalguard » Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:01 pm

I'm personally curious as to how Gemini Man functions in relation to falling into bottomless pits or getting crushed, especially in phase 1 where he makes his clone.

In source games, regardless which of the two Gemini Mans you hit, both take damage to the same health bar. In MMM, whenever a boss falls in a bottomless pit or gets crushed, the HP of the boss is immediately reduced to 0. With these both in mind, if one of the two Gemini Man's gets instantly defeated in phase 1, wouldn't that also instantly defeat the other Gemini Man as well, as their shared HP pool is now 0? Would Gemini Man have some sort of special case to work around these possible situations?

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Re: What I presume is Gemini Man's problem to adapt in the game

Post by SMAAASH!!! Puppy » Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:21 pm

Royalguard wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:01 pm
I'm personally curious as to how Gemini Man functions in relation to falling into bottomless pits or getting crushed, especially in phase 1 where he makes his clone.

In source games, regardless which of the two Gemini Mans you hit, both take damage to the same health bar. In MMM, whenever a boss falls in a bottomless pit or gets crushed, the HP of the boss is immediately reduced to 0. With these both in mind, if one of the two Gemini Man's gets instantly defeated in phase 1, wouldn't that also instantly defeat the other Gemini Man as well, as their shared HP pool is now 0? Would Gemini Man have some sort of special case to work around these possible situations?
Good question. The answer is likely the first scenario you presented, but they could alternatively cause it to reduce their HP to 50% in order to initiate phase 2 instead.

I'd say that the second scenario is optional as it's mostly for realism, but I don't think it would be too terribly difficult to implement either.

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Re: What I presume is Gemini Man's problem to adapt in the game

Post by LeonardMan » Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:41 am

Royalguard wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:01 pm
In source games, regardless which of the two Gemini Mans you hit, both take damage to the same health bar. In MMM, whenever a boss falls in a bottomless pit or gets crushed, the HP of the boss is immediately reduced to 0. With these both in mind, if one of the two Gemini Man's gets instantly defeated in phase 1, wouldn't that also instantly defeat the other Gemini Man as well, as their shared HP pool is now 0? Would Gemini Man have some sort of special case to work around these possible situations?
If I recall correctly, Gemini Man is actually just one robot, the other being his "reflection" as he's supposed to be mirror-themed (a fact that is so easy to miss that even the Power Fighters devs mistook him for an ice-elemental), and the game pulls a Schrodinger's on you regarding which one is the real one and which one is the reflection, as the first you destroy ALWAYS turns out to be the reflection.

The inverse could be applied to falling or crushing, the one that fell into the pit or got crushed always turns out to be the real one (due to the aforementioned Schrodinger thing), and when the real one dies, the reflection disappears.

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Re: What I presume is Gemini Man's problem to adapt in the game

Post by Royalguard » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:52 pm

LeonardMan wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:41 am
The inverse could be applied to falling or crushing, the one that fell into the pit or got crushed always turns out to be the real one (due to the aforementioned Schrodinger thing), and when the real one dies, the reflection disappears.
What about the rare instance where both fall into a pit or get crushed at the same time, how would the game determine which was real and which was the clone? :lol:

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Re: What I presume is Gemini Man's problem to adapt in the game

Post by DestroyerOfDestruction » Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:16 pm

I will have to test it in the Megamix Engine. Wish me luck, though, as I have to bear serious lag or flashing menus in GameMaker Studio 1.4.
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Re: What I presume is Gemini Man's problem to adapt in the game

Post by LeonardMan » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:02 pm

Royalguard wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:52 pm
LeonardMan wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:41 am
The inverse could be applied to falling or crushing, the one that fell into the pit or got crushed always turns out to be the real one (due to the aforementioned Schrodinger thing), and when the real one dies, the reflection disappears.
What about the rare instance where both fall into a pit or get crushed at the same time, how would the game determine which was real and which was the clone? :lol:
In that case, IT DOESN'T FREAKING MATTER! :lol:

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Re: What I presume is Gemini Man's problem to adapt in the game

Post by 6bee » Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:07 pm

LeonardMan wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:02 pm

In that case, IT DOESN'T FREAKING MATTER! :lol:
It actually does now that bosses can drop items. It's not something that would come up often, but I think it's important and probably not too hard to resolve.

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Re: What I presume is Gemini Man's problem to adapt in the game

Post by Royalguard » Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:49 am

6bee wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:07 pm
LeonardMan wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:02 pm

In that case, IT DOESN'T FREAKING MATTER! :lol:
It actually does now that bosses can drop items. It's not something that would come up often, but I think it's important and probably not too hard to resolve.
It also matters in a visual context, at least in terms of both being crushed at the same time, the real Gemini Man should explode as usual, while the clone should just disappear with no visual flair.

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