General Criticism about the 1.6 update

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WitherSnow
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General Criticism about the 1.6 update

Post by WitherSnow » Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:17 am

My criticism will fall into 3 catagories.

[*]General Critique
[*]Bitchy Nitpicks
[*]Missed Oppertunities
[*]Constructive advice.

I don't want this thread to be seen as being ungreatful or anything like that.

-General Critique

First let's start off with the one people will take issue with and will be seen as looking a gift horse in the mouth.

The amount of content compared to 1.5 is smaller, not in a drastic way but notable none the less.
Lets look at enemies, the most important element on a stage and one that needs more love.

Update 1.5 had 27 enemies.
Update 1.6 has 17. Oof!

That is why I'm feeling like there isn't that much stuff.

Ok. But let's look at gimmicks. Arguably the second most important part of a level.

1.5 had 8 gimmicks.
1.6 has 7 if you don't count horizontal versions as a new gimmock and you don't count cogs because they're just conveyor belts that don't cooperate with their neighbors.
Make that 6 if you don't include the elevator stopping mechanism as one either.

Well... What about weapons.

12 weapons in 1.5.
10 in 1.6

See my point.

For funsies let's look at the miscalanius stuff added for each update going by bullet point.
13, not including changes in 1.5.
12, not including changes in 1.6.

It's obvious why this is. It's because of the main feature.
WP sacrificed content for a multiplayer mode and the update suffers for it.
And I don't see that as being worth it. For me, level creation is and always will be a very introverted experience.
You turn on The Verdict with Ted Cruz or whatever you watch/listen to and you frigging make a level by yourself.
I'm not saying that it HAS to be that way. I'm saying it HAS been that way for me and plenty of people.
Streamers will get the most out of this update, allowing a large enough audience to playtest a level mid creation
resulting in a better level. But do you honestly believe most players will use this? I don't.
Before we move onto the next topic there are things I'd like to praise.
The amount of housekeeping when it comes to tiles and backgrounds is astonishing!
That's just shit I didn't expect and now I have new favorites!
And finally Magnet Man's wire tile can be used as a wrap around YES!!!! The edges look a bit weird but that can be fixed.
(I still say we need a tile editor mode to personalize our level and fix weird oddities in the autotiler.) But I appriciate the gesture of adding tiles that attempt to fix that problem.
The subtle hinting at the multiplayer feature was BRILLIANT!!!!
The red pointan in the Impact Man screenshot. The multi-colored pointans, all good stuff.

-Bitchy Nitpicks-

Let's get the stupid stuff outta the way.
the weapon choice is kinda ehhhhh.

Bounce ball is cool and so is Thunder Wool, Water Sheild, Pile Driver, and I guess Scramble Thunder
It's moreso that I would've replaced the MM10 special stage weapons with Triple Blade, Tundra Storm and Scorch Blaze.
No big deal but they could've been done better.

I think one of my biggest complaints is the downgrading of MM10's music. Let's go down the track list.

Blade Man: Slightly noticable but not bad.
Solar Man: This one's baaaaaaaad. It's slower, the chiptune sounds weird, their's practically no backing drum beat and it sounds like it' struggling to even play the song.
Sheep Man: Easy to spot the downgrade at the beginning and you can kinda tell throughout. Also this one lacks more of a drum beat as well.
Commando Man: Oh god! By far the worst one. Downright grating to listen to. Again lacking in any assertive drum beat. Shame.
Pump Man: Still kinda noticable but it's not bad. Lacks the depth of the original song.
Strike Man: It's mostly intact The drum part is died down as well.
Nitro Man: Oddly this song feels faster than it's non maker counterpart. Hard to notice outside of a few issues.
Chill Man: The intro is a tad rough but otherwise this is the best of the 8 robot master themes.
Wily 1 Rain: It's ok. Just lacking something.
Wily 1 Inside: I think the intro is really rough but overall ok besides the fact that it seems slower overall.
Wily 2: Near perfect. Hard to notice any downgrade whatsoever. The last note before the loop isn't as subtly woven into the song as it was before but overall great!
Wily 3: Again another great track nearly untouched.
Wily 4: Kinda rough throughout but ok. Also it's way faster than normal.
Wily 5: What was once complex, slow and quiet is now loud, and WAY faster. You need to give Wily 1 and Solar Man their song speed back. This feels less like a quiet introspective journey through space and more like a horrific crash landing about to happen.
Endless: It's faster than normal but otherwise ok.
Challenge: Ok.
Enker: Pretty good just a little weird at parts.
Punk: Pretty Much Normal. Great song btw.
Ballade: Kept intact but maybe a bit faster than I remember.

I think my biggest problem is that the chiptune lacks the omph that was woven into every beat in the original. Each note had a sort of punctuation. A consanent to start off the vowel as it were. Notes also sometimes don't know when to fade in or out. Listen to them side by side and you'll know instantly what I'm talking about.
I think it's extremely hypocritical that you won't downgrade Blast Man but will downgrade MM10 music.
Which is it? Both points are contradictory. (Don't get me wrong, I love what you did with Blast Man.)
Either you're keeping with what was normal on the NES at the time or you're not.
And plus, this idea of rigidly abiding by the standards of a 30+ year old console is fucking dumb.
We can do 8 bits the right way with no freaking system limitations. So when you set this limitation on yourself it becomes an albatross, a weight around the game's ankle, a cult who's rules must be rigidly fallowed or else!
Nah. Fuck that shit!
It's just a music file, why not just keep the originals intact?

Now for some other stuff:
Sheep spikes have really bad cutoff where they aren't transparent.
Chill man has some cutoff on it's bottom tile.


-Missed Oppertunities-


The acid from Mega Man 2 should've been included. I figure it too can affect the acid pools.
I wish we had Metal Plates to go with Mash burner.
It would've been nice to have the ice breaking enemies from MM10 in there as well.
That's all I can think of for now.


-Constructive Advice-


So now I understand why we had to have a drought. Because it's exactly as they said, a smaller update.
But there is stuff they could've said. For example:
WreckingPrograms wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:41 pm
Temper your expectations. This is still a smaller update. The main feature is the primary reason for the wait.
We don't want to reveal anything more because we want the update to have as many surprises as possible.
Please just wait as long as you can. We're doing the best to make this update as great as can be.
More transparency as to why there are few updates will help the community get through the rough times.
Starting from 1.7 I want to see a WreckingPrograms that is at least willing to say, the main feature is a bitch to code and we don't want to give out too much info. Speaking of 1.7

This update perfectly explains why having a big feature for every update isn't a must.
Now I'm not saying we should get rid of the idea but putting the idea before crucial elements like enemies results in an update that feels smaller in nature. My advice. Make the music changer the next update's big feature and focus on enemies. I also think you should set a deadline for updates and see what you can fit in there. Let's say for example you set 1.7's release date to be October 15th. What enemies, weapons and gimmocks can we fit in this small update.
I know I just gave you two pieces of advice that contradict each other but I think either one could be a good idea.
I perfer that update 1.7 be a big update with a music changer and a large focus on enemies and gimmicks.
I hope you at least take something away from this critique and continue to add new surprises to the game.

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Re: General Criticism about the 1.6 update

Post by Napalm Crusher » Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:42 am

I really liked the new music... even though it doesn't sound as good as the original, it's 100% 2A03 accurate.
I'm only a guy who wants to see Junk Shield in Mega Man Maker... that's it.

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LeonardMan
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Re: General Criticism about the 1.6 update

Post by LeonardMan » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:07 am

WitherSnow wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:17 am
The amount of content compared to 1.5 is smaller, not in a drastic way but notable none the less.
It's not the amount of content that matters, but rather WHAT they put in. Yes, the update did disappoint me, but not on the content amount front. The amount of content in the 1.6 update for me seems quite normal.
WitherSnow wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:17 am
It's obvious why this is. It's because of the main feature.
WP sacrificed content for a multiplayer mode and the update suffers for it.
And I don't see that as being worth it. For me, level creation is and always will be a very introverted experience.
You expressed my point against the multiplayer level-editing better than I ever could!
WitherSnow wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:17 am
the weapon choice is kinda ehhhhh.
I'm fine with the weapon choices. 1.5 and 1.6 together have added enough electric weapons so that it no longer feels like we're lacking them, and I appreciate having another water weapon (that's the theme we had the least weapons of). And while I have no use for the Mega Man Killer weapons, I'm sure many other players will appreciate that the MMK's existence has been acknowledged by the dev team.
WitherSnow wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:17 am
I think my biggest problem is that the chiptune lacks the omph that was woven into every beat in the original.
I don't understand why everyone complains about the music, it seems fine to me.
WitherSnow wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:17 am
-Missed Oppertunities-

The acid from Mega Man 2 should've been included. I figure it too can affect the acid pools.
I wish we had Metal Plates to go with Mash burner.
It would've been nice to have the ice breaking enemies from MM10 in there as well.
Agree on all of that.
WitherSnow wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:17 am
This update perfectly explains why having a big feature for every update isn't a must.
Exactly what I've been trying to say!
WitherSnow wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:17 am
Now I'm not saying we should get rid of the idea but putting the idea before crucial elements like enemies results in an update that feels smaller in nature.
I don't feel it smaller, but the "main feature" is always the hardest thing to make, even more so than the bosses, and if the devs just didn't include one it would take them much less time to complete the update.

I know that the main features in 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 and ESPECIALLY 1.5 are the things that have made Mega Man Maker worth playing, but there's only so many big spectacular main features you can put in the game. After 1.5, Mega Man Maker has reached almost-perfection and doesn't need any huge changes other than having more bosses, enemies, weapons and level objects added to it.
WitherSnow wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:17 am
My advice. Make the music changer the next update's big feature and focus on enemies.
The music changer isn't THAT big to make a big fanfare about it, it's just a block that changes the music during the gameplay when it enters the screen. It would be a small aesthetic side-feature like the drop shadows.

I still BADLY want it, though... :x
WitherSnow wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:17 am
I perfer that update 1.7 be a big update with a music changer and a large focus on enemies and gimmicks.
I'd prefer it to be smaller so that it comes out faster, and without some big main feature to eat away half of the development time. Not every update needs a central theme to justify its existence...

Shadow444
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Re: General Criticism about the 1.6 update

Post by Shadow444 » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:12 am

WitherSnow wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:17 am
I think one of my biggest complaints is the downgrading of MM10's music. Let's go down the track list.

Blade Man: Slightly noticable but not bad.
Solar Man: This one's baaaaaaaad. It's slower, the chiptune sounds weird, their's practically no backing drum beat and it sounds like it' struggling to even play the song.
Sheep Man: Easy to spot the downgrade at the beginning and you can kinda tell throughout. Also this one lacks more of a drum beat as well.
Commando Man: Oh god! By far the worst one. Downright grating to listen to. Again lacking in any assertive drum beat. Shame.
Pump Man: Still kinda noticable but it's not bad. Lacks the depth of the original song.
Strike Man: It's mostly intact The drum part is died down as well.
Nitro Man: Oddly this song feels faster than it's non maker counterpart. Hard to notice outside of a few issues.
Chill Man: The intro is a tad rough but otherwise this is the best of the 8 robot master themes.
Wily 1 Rain: It's ok. Just lacking something.
Wily 1 Inside: I think the intro is really rough but overall ok besides the fact that it seems slower overall.
Wily 2: Near perfect. Hard to notice any downgrade whatsoever. The last note before the loop isn't as subtly woven into the song as it was before but overall great!
Wily 3: Again another great track nearly untouched.
Wily 4: Kinda rough throughout but ok. Also it's way faster than normal.
Wily 5: What was once complex, slow and quiet is now loud, and WAY faster. You need to give Wily 1 and Solar Man their song speed back. This feels less like a quiet introspective journey through space and more like a horrific crash landing about to happen.
Endless: It's faster than normal but otherwise ok.
Challenge: Ok.
Enker: Pretty good just a little weird at parts.
Punk: Pretty Much Normal. Great song btw.
Ballade: Kept intact but maybe a bit faster than I remember.
I immediately replaced all the MM10 (as well as MM9 since 1.5) music on the version of tracks from Mathew Valente. Because these listen unpleasantly if honestly. Also, i don't know why it was necessary to change certain moments of such themes as Block Man, Fuse Man, Bounce Man by CosmicGem and Torch Man. They sounded normal in their first appearance. And in the 1.6 release, they differ from what was before...

WitherSnow
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Re: General Criticism about the 1.6 update

Post by WitherSnow » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:07 am

LeonardMan wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:07 am
WitherSnow wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:17 am
The amount of content compared to 1.5 is smaller, not in a drastic way but notable none the less.
It's not the amount of content that matters, but rather WHAT they put in. Yes, the update did disappoint me, but not on the content amount front. The amount of content in the 1.6 update for me seems quite normal.
WitherSnow wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:17 am
It's obvious why this is. It's because of the main feature.
WP sacrificed content for a multiplayer mode and the update suffers for it.
And I don't see that as being worth it. For me, level creation is and always will be a very introverted experience.
You expressed my point against the multiplayer level-editing better than I ever could!
WitherSnow wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:17 am
the weapon choice is kinda ehhhhh.
I'm fine with the weapon choices. 1.5 and 1.6 together have added enough electric weapons so that it no longer feels like we're lacking them, and I appreciate having another water weapon (that's the theme we had the least weapons of). And while I have no use for the Mega Man Killer weapons, I'm sure many other players will appreciate that the MMK's existence has been acknowledged by the dev team.
WitherSnow wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:17 am
I think my biggest problem is that the chiptune lacks the omph that was woven into every beat in the original.
I don't understand why everyone complains about the music, it seems fine to me.
WitherSnow wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:17 am
-Missed Oppertunities-

The acid from Mega Man 2 should've been included. I figure it too can affect the acid pools.
I wish we had Metal Plates to go with Mash burner.
It would've been nice to have the ice breaking enemies from MM10 in there as well.
Agree on all of that.
WitherSnow wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:17 am
This update perfectly explains why having a big feature for every update isn't a must.
Exactly what I've been trying to say!
WitherSnow wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:17 am
Now I'm not saying we should get rid of the idea but putting the idea before crucial elements like enemies results in an update that feels smaller in nature.
I don't feel it smaller, but the "main feature" is always the hardest thing to make, even more so than the bosses, and if the devs just didn't include one it would take them much less time to complete the update.

I know that the main features in 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 and ESPECIALLY 1.5 are the things that have made Mega Man Maker worth playing, but there's only so many big spectacular main features you can put in the game. After 1.5, Mega Man Maker has reached almost-perfection and doesn't need any huge changes other than having more bosses, enemies, weapons and level objects added to it.
WitherSnow wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:17 am
My advice. Make the music changer the next update's big feature and focus on enemies.
The music changer isn't THAT big to make a big fanfare about it, it's just a block that changes the music during the gameplay when it enters the screen. It would be a small aesthetic side-feature like the drop shadows.

I still BADLY want it, though... :x
WitherSnow wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:17 am
I perfer that update 1.7 be a big update with a music changer and a large focus on enemies and gimmicks.
I'd prefer it to be smaller so that it comes out faster, and without some big main feature to eat away half of the development time. Not every update needs a central theme to justify its existence...
Here's my thoughts on the music changer. It shouldn't take too long to code and will be widely loved by the community.
Where as the Double Gear system or a tile editing mode would be harder and might not be as well loved. More bang for your buck as it were. As for the music change, I can't stand it. In some cases it's atrocious! The notes lacking any real beat is really what kills me. I also agree that what they put in is important. After some time with the new enemies I love practically all of them! I just wish there were more.

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Royalguard
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Re: General Criticism about the 1.6 update

Post by Royalguard » Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:20 am

In hindsight, since v1.6.0's big feature was based on people collaborating to create levels, there was a bit of a missed opportunity to shoehorn in more MM3 content, as MM3's story focused on Dr. Light and Dr. Wily working together (at least until the double-cross). :lol:

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LeonardMan
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Re: General Criticism about the 1.6 update

Post by LeonardMan » Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:24 am

Royalguard wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:20 am
In hindsight, since v1.6.0's big feature was based on people collaborating to create levels, there was a bit of a missed opportunity to shoehorn in more MM3 content, as MM3's story focused on Dr. Light and Dr. Wily working together (at least until the double-cross). :lol:
Interesting idea... But what content would you have snuck in? Robot Masters are too complex, and the only missing weapons are Spark Shock and Rush Marine. So that leaves us with enemies and level objects?

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Royalguard
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Re: General Criticism about the 1.6 update

Post by Royalguard » Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:32 am

LeonardMan wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:24 am
Royalguard wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:20 am
In hindsight, since v1.6.0's big feature was based on people collaborating to create levels, there was a bit of a missed opportunity to shoehorn in more MM3 content, as MM3's story focused on Dr. Light and Dr. Wily working together (at least until the double-cross). :lol:
Interesting idea... But what content would you have snuck in? Robot Masters are too complex, and the only missing weapons are Spark Shock and Rush Marine. So that leaves us with enemies and level objects?
Didn't really have any specific ideas in mind actually, just seemed like something that would have been thematically appropriate. Though, admittedly, I'd love to see plates based on the MM3 "DRWN" logo, even if it exists exclusively as concept art, and no official in-game sprite exists in plate form.

Image

WitherSnow
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Re: General Criticism about the 1.6 update

Post by WitherSnow » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:46 pm

LeonardMan wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:24 am
Royalguard wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:20 am
In hindsight, since v1.6.0's big feature was based on people collaborating to create levels, there was a bit of a missed opportunity to shoehorn in more MM3 content, as MM3's story focused on Dr. Light and Dr. Wily working together (at least until the double-cross). :lol:
Interesting idea... But what content would you have snuck in? Robot Masters are too complex, and the only missing weapons are Spark Shock and Rush Marine. So that leaves us with enemies and level objects?
There are a bunch of enemies from 3 that aren't in the game.
If you add enemies from 1 and 2 the total is around 32. So that would be nice.

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LeonardMan
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Re: General Criticism about the 1.6 update

Post by LeonardMan » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:58 pm

WitherSnow wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:46 pm
LeonardMan wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:24 am
Royalguard wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:20 am
In hindsight, since v1.6.0's big feature was based on people collaborating to create levels, there was a bit of a missed opportunity to shoehorn in more MM3 content, as MM3's story focused on Dr. Light and Dr. Wily working together (at least until the double-cross). :lol:
Interesting idea... But what content would you have snuck in? Robot Masters are too complex, and the only missing weapons are Spark Shock and Rush Marine. So that leaves us with enemies and level objects?
There are a bunch of enemies from 3 that aren't in the game.
If you add enemies from 1 and 2 the total is around 32. So that would be nice.
And what would your personal choices be?

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