Can we please nerf a few weapons? And some other changes

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memelord69
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Can we please nerf a few weapons? And some other changes

Post by memelord69 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:10 pm

Hi

Can we please get some of this stuff:

1. Let us turn off the little Protoman whistle on every respawn. Actually, just give us instant respawns in general lol
2. Give Bass an option to do a normal slide. Down+jump can slide, dash button can dash
3. Nerf the Thunder Claw. Have it go through all enemies, forcing the player to wait out the cooldown. Otherwise, you can walk up to mini-bosses, and spam the Claw at them to kill them in half a second
4. Nerf the Wood Barrier. That thing can be used infinitely. It's super broken.
5. Nerf the Drill Bomb. Increase its energy cost. It has super high AoE DPS at such a cheap cost rn lol
6. Nerf the Flame Sword on Bass. It has a larger hitbox, it can reach behind sometimes, and does higher damage when used with Bass for some reason. It might be a glitch, even
7. Let us cancel Pile Driver by inputting a movement command, similar to Charge Kick cancels. Ya, we can weapon switch to cancel it, but that isn't intuitive to the average player
8. Nerf Shine, make it cost more energy
9. Also make Mirror Buster cost more energy
10. Nerf Jewel Satellite. That thing reflects everything as long as you don't reflect it off yourself by accident lol
11. Nerf Plant Barrier by not letting it absorb projectiles infinitely as long as your health is full
12. Nerf the barriers in general. Make them drain energy every time they absorb projectiles


I know these are nitpicks, but they'd prob go a long way to adding weapon variety and such
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Re: Can we please nerf a few weapons? And some other changes

Post by Blue_Bummer » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:36 pm

Is this an April Fools joke? 🤔

But seriously if folks can ask for buffs it's fair someone can ask for nerfs. Personally the only weapon I think would justify a nerf is the Shine as it's very powerful. More weapon energy consumption per deflection I suppose?

Wouldn't a simpler fix if a weapon is too strong is to simply make the environment more challenging?🤏 This puts the responsibility in the hands of the map maker instead of the Devs.

Another thing to consider is drastic changes to weapons post release. Buffs would make levels with buffed weapons easier, but nerfs could potentially break older levels dependent on those nerfed weapons.

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Re: Can we please nerf a few weapons? And some other changes

Post by Royalguard » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:32 am

Blue_Bummer wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:36 pm
nerfs could potentially break older levels dependent on those nerfed weapons.
I agree with this statement, well said.

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Re: Can we please nerf a few weapons? And some other changes

Post by UlticraftMTT » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:51 am

Royalguard wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:32 am
Blue_Bummer wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:36 pm
nerfs could potentially break older levels dependent on those nerfed weapons.
I agree with this statement, well said.
Maybe they could do what they did with Conveyor Belts and Boss Doors for backwards compatibility, keep the old versions in the code, but make only the new versions accessible.
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Re: Can we please nerf a few weapons? And some other changes

Post by D-Man » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:33 am

memelord69 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:10 pm
6. Nerf the Flame Sword on Bass. It has a larger hitbox, it can reach behind sometimes, and does higher damage when used with Bass for some reason. It might be a glitch, even
I brought this exploit to light in the #bug-reports channel on Discord, but they claimed it was not a glitch, somehow.
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Re: Can we please nerf a few weapons? And some other changes

Post by memelord69 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:24 pm

Blue_Bummer wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:36 pm
Wouldn't a simpler fix if a weapon is too strong is to simply make the environment more challenging?🤏 This puts the responsibility in the hands of the map maker instead of the Devs.
How far can we push this tho? I agree that giving players strong weapons justifies difficulty spikes in a level. But what sort of spamfest would you need to balance something like the Wood Shield when it can be used infinitely due to an easy-to-do glitch? How can one feasibly increase difficulty more and more for each weapon that's added into the level?
At some point, the weapons need to be nerfed, else the level becomes unreasonably hard even with strong weapons
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Re: Can we please nerf a few weapons? And some other changes

Post by Blue_Bummer » Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:37 pm

memelord69 wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:24 pm
Blue_Bummer wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:36 pm
Wouldn't a simpler fix if a weapon is too strong is to simply make the environment more challenging?🤏 This puts the responsibility in the hands of the map maker instead of the Devs.
How far can we push this tho? I agree that giving players strong weapons justifies difficulty spikes in a level. But what sort of spamfest would you need to balance something like the Wood Shield when it can be used infinitely due to an easy-to-do glitch? How can one feasibly increase difficulty more and more for each weapon that's added into the level?
At some point, the weapons need to be nerfed, else the level becomes unreasonably hard even with strong weapons
Yeah, but by that logic how can adjustments to weapons be determined?🤔 If a level can be made too difficult for even a strong weapon, Is the weapon really that strong?

Also on the flip side of the coin then couldn't a strong weapon be nerfed too much to make it unusable? It's the same position, instead now it's the weapon's fault instead of the level design at fault.

I would think the standard baseline for a weapon should be it's canonical strength from it's original Mega Man game. I think that a weapon should never be made weaker than that, but that's just me. :)

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Re: Can we please nerf a few weapons? And some other changes

Post by Royalguard » Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:42 am

Blue_Bummer wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:37 pm
Also on the flip side of the coin then couldn't a strong weapon be nerfed too much to make it unusable? It's the same position, instead now it's the weapon's fault instead of the level design at fault.

I would think the standard baseline for a weapon should be it's canonical strength from it's original Mega Man game. I think that a weapon should never be made weaker than that, but that's just me. :)
If any weapon got nerfed way too hard in MMM, its Needle Cannon. Have fun trying to get anywhere fast with high HP enemies and mid-bosses.

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Re: Can we please nerf a few weapons? And some other changes

Post by boltgreywing » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:00 pm

Royalguard wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:42 am
Blue_Bummer wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:37 pm
Also on the flip side of the coin then couldn't a strong weapon be nerfed too much to make it unusable? It's the same position, instead now it's the weapon's fault instead of the level design at fault.

I would think the standard baseline for a weapon should be it's canonical strength from it's original Mega Man game. I think that a weapon should never be made weaker than that, but that's just me. :)
If any weapon got nerfed way too hard in MMM, its Needle Cannon. Have fun trying to get anywhere fast with high HP enemies and mid-bosses.
If there is one weapon deserves to be nerfed it be the saw blades from megaman 2, the energy goes down too slow for such an overpowered weapon. Needle Cannon deserves a buff and Leaf shield deserves a nerf of walking drains the weapon energy at a slow rate to balance the shield staying on you forever for standing still. Its literally impenetrable, but before it was plain bad. Being able to throw it when you want is a nice touch. This would balance this weapon out.

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Re: Can we please nerf a few weapons? And some other changes

Post by Royalguard » Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:49 am

boltgreywing wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:00 pm
Royalguard wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:42 am
Blue_Bummer wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:37 pm
Also on the flip side of the coin then couldn't a strong weapon be nerfed too much to make it unusable? It's the same position, instead now it's the weapon's fault instead of the level design at fault.

I would think the standard baseline for a weapon should be it's canonical strength from it's original Mega Man game. I think that a weapon should never be made weaker than that, but that's just me. :)
If any weapon got nerfed way too hard in MMM, its Needle Cannon. Have fun trying to get anywhere fast with high HP enemies and mid-bosses.
If there is one weapon deserves to be nerfed it be the saw blades from megaman 2, the energy goes down too slow for such an overpowered weapon.
I might be wrong, but I believe Metal Blade already has been nerfed in MMM, as it takes longer to defeat some enemies with it in MMM in comparison to MM2. That said, even with the nerf, I agree the large ammo capacity combined with unlimited range 8-way firing through walls still makes it absurdly OP.

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Re: Can we please nerf a few weapons? And some other changes

Post by D-Man » Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:58 am

Shadow Blade can be considered to be a balanced version of Metal Blade. It consumes more energy and has less range, but does 2 units of damage instead of 1. With the exception of Hot Dog and Fly Boy, all enemies take the same amount of energy to defeat with Metal and Shadow Blade.

I would not consider MMM Needle Cannon to be a nerf, as the original weapon was just a slightly edited Mega Buster, and MMM's version can deal up to 10 damage for 1.25 units of energy if all 5 needles are stuck in at once (0.5 per tick x 4 ticks x 5 Needles). If the slow tick rate and onscreen limit were removed, it would most likely become overpowered,
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Re: Can we please nerf a few weapons? And some other changes

Post by boltgreywing » Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:22 am

Royalguard wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:49 am
boltgreywing wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:00 pm
Royalguard wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:42 am


If any weapon got nerfed way too hard in MMM, its Needle Cannon. Have fun trying to get anywhere fast with high HP enemies and mid-bosses.
If there is one weapon deserves to be nerfed it be the saw blades from megaman 2, the energy goes down too slow for such an overpowered weapon.
I might be wrong, but I believe Metal Blade already has been nerfed in MMM, as it takes longer to defeat some enemies with it in MMM in comparison to MM2. That said, even with the nerf, I agree the large ammo capacity combined with unlimited range 8-way firing through walls still makes it absurdly OP.
To me the metal blade still feels way too overpowered, if anything if it switched its weapon ammo usage with the ammo usage of the crash bombs it even the two out. Also I still feel that needle blade is not that overpowered. The other problem that compounds things is the spiny hedgehogs require 3 hits as opposed to their 6 hits in megaman 3. They go down too quickly. Also the Skele joes from Megaman 4 are now too weak because of the removal of can't be destroyed by megaman buster mechanic. The skele joes were there to give a reason for the player to actually be forced to use the charge shot, but it was never given to other enemies or bosses.

This guy has a good idea of the weapons and levels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5cpwr7Ugy0

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Re: Can we please nerf a few weapons? And some other changes

Post by Blue_Bummer » Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:12 am

The fact of the matter is.... Whatever weapons ever get buffed or nerfed... It would still be impossible to make everyone happy. :P

Honestly though... If a weapon is too overpowered then why use it when playing? Why put it in a level if making a level? :\

With the huge assortment of weapons/utilities available in Mega Man Maker people should be able to avoid using weapons they don't prefer. Like for example D-Man's mention of Shadow Blade as a more reserved version of Metal Blade.

I still think that it's the level designer's responsibility to properly design levels around implemented weapons in a level. This ultimately determines the difficulty of a level, not the weapon(s) included in it. A person can take the most OP weapons in MMM and still create a challenging level, the weapon has to be taken into account in level design though.

I have confidence in the design decisions of Wrecking and his team. So far I've been thrilled with every decision made. MMM is a great game. :)

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Re: Can we please nerf a few weapons? And some other changes

Post by boltgreywing » Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:01 am

Blue_Bummer wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:12 am
The fact of the matter is.... Whatever weapons ever get buffed or nerfed... It would still be impossible to make everyone happy. :P

Honestly though... If a weapon is too overpowered then why use it when playing? Why put it in a level if making a level? :\

With the huge assortment of weapons/utilities available in Mega Man Maker people should be able to avoid using weapons they don't prefer. Like for example D-Man's mention of Shadow Blade as a more reserved version of Metal Blade.

I still think that it's the level designer's responsibility to properly design levels around implemented weapons in a level. This ultimately determines the difficulty of a level, not the weapon(s) included in it. A person can take the most OP weapons in MMM and still create a challenging level, the weapon has to be taken into account in level design though.

I have confidence in the design decisions of Wrecking and his team. So far I've been thrilled with every decision made. MMM is a great game. :)
There is also the bigger flaw that if you use the weapons they won't ding against X shield blocks and will instead pass through. They should ding on X and other blocks that are not correct ones, not go through them. Too many overpowered weapons or underpowered weapons spoils the game.

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Re: Can we please nerf a few weapons? And some other changes

Post by sbq92 » Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:28 am

One possible alternative to nerfing weapons could be to have an option to control energy and weapon energy drop rates*, including having zero drops. This way, map designers would have a lot more control over how much weapon energy a player has to work with. With a truly limited weapon energy pool, players would have to think a bit more about how and when to use their weapons.

*Perhaps even have separate rates for health, ammo, and 1-ups.
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Re: Can we please nerf a few weapons? And some other changes

Post by memelord69 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:32 pm

Blue_Bummer wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:12 am

With the huge assortment of weapons/utilities available in Mega Man Maker people should be able to avoid using weapons they don't prefer. Like for example D-Man's mention of Shadow Blade as a more reserved version of Metal Blade.

I still think that it's the level designer's responsibility to properly design levels around implemented weapons in a level. This ultimately determines the difficulty of a level, not the weapon(s) included in it. A person can take the most OP weapons in MMM and still create a challenging level, the weapon has to be taken into account in level design though.
The problem is how things overlap.
For example, let's say I wanna use the Thunder claw for its vine swinging ability. However, by adding it to the level, it gives the player a melee weapon that is extremely spammable and puts out nearly the highest DPS in the game. So in order for me to have sections that have me swinging on the whip, I forcefully have to accept that I'm adding a weapon that trivializes a lot of combat. There are many other weapons that are in a similar position.
This is why I really think weapons - especially ones with secondary properties - need to be very well balanced.

As another example not involving gimmicks, consider the Metal Blade everyone keeps discussing. It's the only weapon that can be shot in 8 directions the way it can. So if you want to add this combat option, you also need to accept that you're adding a weapon that's nearly unlimited in how often you can abuse its biggest strength.

Again, with proper balancing, creators wouldn't have to say, "well, I want feature X, I guess I'll just accept feature Y with it"


sbq92 wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:28 am
One possible alternative to nerfing weapons could be to have an option to control energy and weapon energy drop rates*, including having zero drops. This way, map designers would have a lot more control over how much weapon energy a player has to work with. With a truly limited weapon energy pool, players would have to think a bit more about how and when to use their weapons.

*Perhaps even have separate rates for health, ammo, and 1-ups.
Yes, I agree with this, although I'd take it a step further. I'd say to let us choose how much damage and how much energy our weapon uses as well. This way, we can just handle things ourselves. In the UI, to avoid confusion, whenever the player pauses, it can just show the damage and energy cost next to each weapon name there.
I've been dying for something like this since ages ago, but it's never become a thing
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Re: Can we please nerf a few weapons? And some other changes

Post by Blue_Bummer » Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:43 am

memelord69 wrote:The problem is how things overlap.
For example, let's say I wanna use the Thunder claw for its vine swinging ability. However, by adding it to the level, it gives the player a melee weapon that is extremely spammable and puts out nearly the highest DPS in the game. So in order for me to have sections that have me swinging on the whip, I forcefully have to accept that I'm adding a weapon that trivializes a lot of combat. There are many other weapons that are in a similar position.
This is why I really think weapons - especially ones with secondary properties - need to be very well balanced.

As another example not involving gimmicks, consider the Metal Blade everyone keeps discussing. It's the only weapon that can be shot in 8 directions the way it can. So if you want to add this combat option, you also need to accept that you're adding a weapon that's nearly unlimited in how often you can abuse its biggest strength.

Again, with proper balancing, creators wouldn't have to say, "well, I want feature X, I guess I'll just accept feature Y with it"
That's a very valid point.🤔

... but who can say what is properly balanced? With such a wide variety of opinions on what makes a weapon good or bad it's difficult to set a standard beyond other than what the original Mega Man games give.

What may be better balanced to one map designer, might be over or under powered to another. Which ones should the Devs listen to?
I'd say to let us choose how much damage and how much energy our weapon uses as well. This way, we can just handle things ourselves. In the UI, to avoid confusion, whenever the player pauses, it can just show the damage and energy cost next to each weapon name there.
The problem with that is then the potential of having wildly varying standards for weapons among multiple levels, it'd be nearly impossible for a player to acclimate to the weapons if they're constantly changing from map to map if every map author is changing the weapon values. 🙃

To me the only solution for this is official mod support. The caveat to that though, would be that mods would never be hosted on the servers. :\

Me personally I'd love to self host some mods, but I know many users would be turned off due to not getting exposure on the official servers.

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Re: Can we please nerf a few weapons? And some other changes

Post by DestroyerOfDestruction » Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:24 pm

boltgreywing wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:01 am
There is also the bigger flaw that if you use the weapons they won't ding against X shield blocks and will instead pass through. They should ding on X and other blocks that are not correct ones, not go through them. Too many overpowered weapons or underpowered weapons spoils the game.
The Push Blocks didn't block attacks in the original game either. Their main purpose is not to be immune blocks, but to be pushed with the Power Adaptor's charged projectile.
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