I think I've found the perfect formula for Super Arm AND Deep Digger in Mega Man Maker!

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LeonardMan
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Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:55 am

I think I've found the perfect formula for Super Arm AND Deep Digger in Mega Man Maker!

Post by LeonardMan » Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:34 pm

Super Arm and Deep Digger, both of which are practically the same weapon. They are too difficult to implement in Mega Man Maker because of their requirement of blocks existing in the level to serve as ammunition, and adding them both sounds like a bad idea on paper because they both act exactly the same...

But I've found a way to make them interesting in Mega Man Maker, have them be subtly but significantly different from each other, AND having the decision of which one to pick be actually important to your level's design!

Before going to the difference, let's go over the similarities first. At first glance, it will seem that both weapons will be indistinguishable from each other, as Super Arm will be able to lift Deep Digger's single-tile blocks and Deep Digger will be able to lift Super Arm's 2x2 tile blocks (that do twice as much damage as single-tile blocks when thrown), as well as the interactions with cracked blocks and X-Blocks that other users have been suggesting in this forum.

But then, WHY have both weapons?

Here is the difference: Deep Digger will allow you to pick up and throw blocks for free, but when no blocks are available, you can press the fire button while standing on the ground. Your character will do a short animation as if he is ripping the block off from the floor (though not actually take the tile out), and pull a single-tile block, which is what consumes energy. Super Arm will not be able to do this.

But WHY would you want to put Super Arm in such disadvantage?

Because you might be designing a level in the style of Chip n' Dale Rescue Rangers or Doki Doki Panic, where the characters could not create their own blocks and depended on the environment to be able to fight back. When you don't want the player to be cheesing your level, you give them Super Arm. However, when your level is NOT littered with blocks everywhere, and thus not designed for Super Arm, you give them Deep Digger instead, which is the exact same but can generate its own small blocks when there aren't any in the area.

Of course, the boss battles in Chip n' Dale and Doki Doki panic always had a way to generate new blocks or objects for the player to grab so that the fight doesn't become unwinnable. Therefore, levels using Super Arm would necessitate a block generator that you can for example place inside the boss room. You could use the ones from Mega Man Powered Up.
Bubble Bobble: 242483

Castle of Illusion:
1: 231053
2: 231057
3: 231059
4: 231062
5: 231064
Final: 231066

Mr. Gimmick:
1: 178176
2: 178177
3: 178178
4: 178181
5: 178192
6: 178198
Final: ??????, Hunt for each digit in the other 6 levels!

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D-Man
Posts: 351
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Re: I think I've found the perfect formula for Super Arm AND Deep Digger in Mega Man Maker!

Post by D-Man » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:20 am

Another difference between the two weapons is how the blocks are used offensively.
  • Super Arm throws blocks in a small arc, which split into debris that fly forward and towards the air.
  • Deep Digger throws blocks straight forward, which split in a fan-like trajectory (like Shotgun Ice in Mega Man X)
Both Super Arm and Deep Digger use 2 units of energy per throw as well, and ladders cannot be climbed while holding something.

I support your idea for Deep Digger, and its somewhat high energy cost would prevent players from completely cheesing levels.
The main problem I have with S. Arm is that it cannot be used unless the level contains blocks for it to carry, so I thought: what if S. Arm could be used to pick up small/medium enemies and throw them? The damage dealt would be equal to that enemy's HP (so for example, throwing a Sniper Joe will deal 10 damage to another enemy). To balance it out, sliding/dashing will throw the held enemy automatically, and throwing an enemy will use 3 units of energy.
Waiting for King Knight and The Delicious Last Course (and 1.6).
Levels:
Darkness Crypt - Megaman (339203)
Excitement Emporium - Megaman (339627)
Trinitro Towers - Megaman (344128)
Cascade Pipeway - Megaman (349271)
Doc Wave V.2 (350661)

LeonardMan
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Re: I think I've found the perfect formula for Super Arm AND Deep Digger in Mega Man Maker!

Post by LeonardMan » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:39 am

D-Man wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:20 am
so I thought: what if S. Arm could be used to pick up small/medium enemies and throw them? The damage dealt would be equal to that enemy's HP (so for example, throwing a Sniper Joe will deal 10 damage to another enemy). To balance it out, sliding/dashing will throw the held enemy automatically, and throwing an enemy will use 3 units of energy.
Was your previous name "In-Universe"?
Bubble Bobble: 242483

Castle of Illusion:
1: 231053
2: 231057
3: 231059
4: 231062
5: 231064
Final: 231066

Mr. Gimmick:
1: 178176
2: 178177
3: 178178
4: 178181
5: 178192
6: 178198
Final: ??????, Hunt for each digit in the other 6 levels!

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D-Man
Posts: 351
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:17 pm

Re: I think I've found the perfect formula for Super Arm AND Deep Digger in Mega Man Maker!

Post by D-Man » Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:10 am

LeonardMan wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:39 am
D-Man wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:20 am
so I thought: what if S. Arm could be used to pick up small/medium enemies and throw them? The damage dealt would be equal to that enemy's HP (so for example, throwing a Sniper Joe will deal 10 damage to another enemy). To balance it out, sliding/dashing will throw the held enemy automatically, and throwing an enemy will use 3 units of energy.
Was your previous name "In-Universe"?
No. Who is that?
Waiting for King Knight and The Delicious Last Course (and 1.6).
Levels:
Darkness Crypt - Megaman (339203)
Excitement Emporium - Megaman (339627)
Trinitro Towers - Megaman (344128)
Cascade Pipeway - Megaman (349271)
Doc Wave V.2 (350661)

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Blue_Bummer
Posts: 130
Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:38 pm

Re: I think I've found the perfect formula for Super Arm AND Deep Digger in Mega Man Maker!

Post by Blue_Bummer » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:09 pm

I approve of the original post. Great idea with Deep Digger being able to 'spawn' it's own blocks where ever in the level as if the player is pulling them out of the ground (but not actually removing tile). Nice one Leonard!

I originally was indifferent on Deep Digger but wouldn't mind seeing it in alongside Super Arm, as with those kind of configurations they'd both be original enough from each other.

D-Man's idea of throwing enemies with Super Arm is a cool idea, but I can see potential complications in level design with it. Granted a user doesn't have to include it in their level, and if Deep Digger is also available then map makers would have an option if they wanted the block throwing ability without people being able to throw smaller enemies.

I'd be cool with it either way. I'd actually like to see both weapons in the game now. :)

LeonardMan
Posts: 1279
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:55 am

Re: I think I've found the perfect formula for Super Arm AND Deep Digger in Mega Man Maker!

Post by LeonardMan » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:23 pm

D-Man wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:10 am
LeonardMan wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:39 am
D-Man wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:20 am
so I thought: what if S. Arm could be used to pick up small/medium enemies and throw them? The damage dealt would be equal to that enemy's HP (so for example, throwing a Sniper Joe will deal 10 damage to another enemy). To balance it out, sliding/dashing will throw the held enemy automatically, and throwing an enemy will use 3 units of energy.
Was your previous name "In-Universe"?
No. Who is that?
Way back when the programmers within this forum were pitching their ideas to the dev team and showing off their programming skills in hopes that WreckingPrograms would use their code, two programmers named "Bucket" and "In-Universe" each came up with a different variant for Super Arm. One of them (I don't remember which) proposed exactly the same idea you're proposing.
Bubble Bobble: 242483

Castle of Illusion:
1: 231053
2: 231057
3: 231059
4: 231062
5: 231064
Final: 231066

Mr. Gimmick:
1: 178176
2: 178177
3: 178178
4: 178181
5: 178192
6: 178198
Final: ??????, Hunt for each digit in the other 6 levels!

LeonardMan
Posts: 1279
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:55 am

Re: I think I've found the perfect formula for Super Arm AND Deep Digger in Mega Man Maker!

Post by LeonardMan » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:26 pm

Blue_Bummer wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:09 pm
a user doesn't have to include it in their level, and if Deep Digger is also available then map makers would have an option
That's my idea in a nutshell. Want the player to depend on the environment to fight back like in Chip n' Dale Rescue Rangers? Use Super Arm. Want a block-throwing weapon but your level is NOT littered with blocks for the player to pick up? Use Deep Digger instead.
Bubble Bobble: 242483

Castle of Illusion:
1: 231053
2: 231057
3: 231059
4: 231062
5: 231064
Final: 231066

Mr. Gimmick:
1: 178176
2: 178177
3: 178178
4: 178181
5: 178192
6: 178198
Final: ??????, Hunt for each digit in the other 6 levels!

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QuartexGames
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Location: Fat's Fats Factory

Re: I think I've found the perfect formula for Super Arm AND Deep Digger in Mega Man Maker!

Post by QuartexGames » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:50 am

What if Deep Digger would pick up blocks vertically and Super Arm would pick up blocks horizontally?
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LeonardMan
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Re: I think I've found the perfect formula for Super Arm AND Deep Digger in Mega Man Maker!

Post by LeonardMan » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:47 pm

QuartexGames wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:50 am
What if Deep Digger would pick up blocks vertically and Super Arm would pick up blocks horizontally?
Hmmm... Considering that's how they worked in their respective games of origin :| ...you're right.
Bubble Bobble: 242483

Castle of Illusion:
1: 231053
2: 231057
3: 231059
4: 231062
5: 231064
Final: 231066

Mr. Gimmick:
1: 178176
2: 178177
3: 178178
4: 178181
5: 178192
6: 178198
Final: ??????, Hunt for each digit in the other 6 levels!

User avatar
QuartexGames
Posts: 1529
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:02 pm
Location: Fat's Fats Factory

Re: I think I've found the perfect formula for Super Arm AND Deep Digger in Mega Man Maker!

Post by QuartexGames » Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:24 pm

LeonardMan wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:47 pm
QuartexGames wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:50 am
What if Deep Digger would pick up blocks vertically and Super Arm would pick up blocks horizontally?
Hmmm... Considering that's how they worked in their respective games of origin :| ...you're right.
Thanks! I thought it will make them work the same as in their games, but also would make them different from themselves. ;)
Woah It's Green ID: 316053
Woah It's Blue ID: 260308
Woah It's Yellow ID: 263387
Woah It's Red ID: 325994
Woah It's WhiteID: 258788
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Neo Cutman
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Re: I think I've found the perfect formula for Super Arm AND Deep Digger in Mega Man Maker!

Post by Neo Cutman » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:00 pm

LeonardMan wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:34 pm
Super Arm and Deep Digger, both of which are practically the same weapon. They are too difficult to implement in Mega Man Maker because of their requirement of blocks existing in the level to serve as ammunition, and adding them both sounds like a bad idea on paper because they both act exactly the same...

But I've found a way to make them interesting in Mega Man Maker, have them be subtly but significantly different from each other, AND having the decision of which one to pick be actually important to your level's design!

Before going to the difference, let's go over the similarities first. At first glance, it will seem that both weapons will be indistinguishable from each other, as Super Arm will be able to lift Deep Digger's single-tile blocks and Deep Digger will be able to lift Super Arm's 2x2 tile blocks (that do twice as much damage as single-tile blocks when thrown), as well as the interactions with cracked blocks and X-Blocks that other users have been suggesting in this forum.

But then, WHY have both weapons?

Here is the difference: Deep Digger will allow you to pick up and throw blocks for free, but when no blocks are available, you can press the fire button while standing on the ground. Your character will do a short animation as if he is ripping the block off from the floor (though not actually take the tile out), and pull a single-tile block, which is what consumes energy. Super Arm will not be able to do this.

But WHY would you want to put Super Arm in such disadvantage?

Because you might be designing a level in the style of Chip n' Dale Rescue Rangers or Doki Doki Panic, where the characters could not create their own blocks and depended on the environment to be able to fight back. When you don't want the player to be cheesing your level, you give them Super Arm. However, when your level is NOT littered with blocks everywhere, and thus not designed for Super Arm, you give them Deep Digger instead, which is the exact same but can generate its own small blocks when there aren't any in the area.

Of course, the boss battles in Chip n' Dale and Doki Doki panic always had a way to generate new blocks or objects for the player to grab so that the fight doesn't become unwinnable. Therefore, levels using Super Arm would necessitate a block generator that you can for example place inside the boss room. You could use the ones from Mega Man Powered Up.
I liked the suggestions for weapons but would like to suggest even more differences.

Super Arm could be able to hold and stack Push Blocks like when we play as Guts Man on the PU, or if not possible because of bugs a new type of block could be stackable by Super Arm.

The Deep Digger could be able to dig when the player is above certain types of blocks, and remove them and make them a throwable object, I suggest Dust Blocks and Bokazurah Blocks.

Dust Block is easily destroyed by numerous weapons, but sometimes we can't hit it under the megaman depending on which weapon he is using.

Bozazurah Blocks is unique to Bokazurah, but why not make an exception and allow this block to be used as a level lock in other ways?

LeonardMan
Posts: 1279
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:55 am

Re: I think I've found the perfect formula for Super Arm AND Deep Digger in Mega Man Maker!

Post by LeonardMan » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:15 pm

Neo Cutman wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:00 pm
LeonardMan wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:34 pm
Super Arm and Deep Digger, both of which are practically the same weapon. They are too difficult to implement in Mega Man Maker because of their requirement of blocks existing in the level to serve as ammunition, and adding them both sounds like a bad idea on paper because they both act exactly the same...

But I've found a way to make them interesting in Mega Man Maker, have them be subtly but significantly different from each other, AND having the decision of which one to pick be actually important to your level's design!

Before going to the difference, let's go over the similarities first. At first glance, it will seem that both weapons will be indistinguishable from each other, as Super Arm will be able to lift Deep Digger's single-tile blocks and Deep Digger will be able to lift Super Arm's 2x2 tile blocks (that do twice as much damage as single-tile blocks when thrown), as well as the interactions with cracked blocks and X-Blocks that other users have been suggesting in this forum.

But then, WHY have both weapons?

Here is the difference: Deep Digger will allow you to pick up and throw blocks for free, but when no blocks are available, you can press the fire button while standing on the ground. Your character will do a short animation as if he is ripping the block off from the floor (though not actually take the tile out), and pull a single-tile block, which is what consumes energy. Super Arm will not be able to do this.

But WHY would you want to put Super Arm in such disadvantage?

Because you might be designing a level in the style of Chip n' Dale Rescue Rangers or Doki Doki Panic, where the characters could not create their own blocks and depended on the environment to be able to fight back. When you don't want the player to be cheesing your level, you give them Super Arm. However, when your level is NOT littered with blocks everywhere, and thus not designed for Super Arm, you give them Deep Digger instead, which is the exact same but can generate its own small blocks when there aren't any in the area.

Of course, the boss battles in Chip n' Dale and Doki Doki panic always had a way to generate new blocks or objects for the player to grab so that the fight doesn't become unwinnable. Therefore, levels using Super Arm would necessitate a block generator that you can for example place inside the boss room. You could use the ones from Mega Man Powered Up.
I liked the suggestions for weapons but would like to suggest even more differences.

Super Arm could be able to hold and stack Push Blocks like when we play as Guts Man on the PU, or if not possible because of bugs a new type of block could be stackable by Super Arm.

The Deep Digger could be able to dig when the player is above certain types of blocks, and remove them and make them a throwable object, I suggest Dust Blocks and Bokazurah Blocks.

Dust Block is easily destroyed by numerous weapons, but sometimes we can't hit it under the megaman depending on which weapon he is using.

Bozazurah Blocks is unique to Bokazurah, but why not make an exception and allow this block to be used as a level lock in other ways?
Hmmmm, I like your suggestions too, actually. Not sure with the Bokazurah blocks, but definitely with the Dust blocks (or with Deep Digger's own blocks from MMV).
Bubble Bobble: 242483

Castle of Illusion:
1: 231053
2: 231057
3: 231059
4: 231062
5: 231064
Final: 231066

Mr. Gimmick:
1: 178176
2: 178177
3: 178178
4: 178181
5: 178192
6: 178198
Final: ??????, Hunt for each digit in the other 6 levels!

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