MM1 is good fite me

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TrashMan69
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MM1 is good fite me

Post by TrashMan69 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:08 am

MM1 is probably the most underrated game in the classic series to me

MM1 actually shines bright where some later games don't, for instance the weapons are extremely balanced and built around the games level design very well, like how Fire Storm is a weapon that is practical due to its effectiveness of killing smaller enemies with ease like flea's and Susie's. And then you have MM3 which includes Spark Shock, a weapon that is not good due to how poorly its use is regarding the level design of the game, there is almost no areas where freezing something would be practical. (weapons are also balanced in the sense that there is no one dominating weapon like metal blade)

the RM AI i will admit is not the best sometimes (Fire man and Elec man...) But this game also brought us some pretty good fights, (simple ones but goodies) bomb man is a frantic fight that is actually pretty well done Ice man (while he does WAY too much damage) is a fun fight and is rewarding once you beat it (same for Yellow Devil Mark 1)its far from the best RM AI, but there has been a Loot worse. And some fights actually still hold up to this day.

And in terms of level design its MM level design at its finest, teaching the player before attempting anything crazy (like the beginning of Fire mans stage, giving you an opportunity to look at the screw bombers before actually fighting them) a few spots that are painful but still really good level design throughout most of the stages.

This game has its annoyances but honestly its a game that takes getting used to but you wont need to die over and over again just to learn the lay of the land. You know what to do most of the time, its just about executing it and getting used to the games physics.
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Re: MM1 is good fite me

Post by Bean man » Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:09 am

This game wasn't very fun...
I know it's the first game but it has such terrible controls and physics, and is FILLED with glitches.

Sometimes rarely there is good stage design but most the time it's atrocious and doesn't introduce things properly, Elec man's stage is a bigger offender of boredom and frustration climbing upwards than Crash man's, Guts man's stage has some of the worst difficulty curve I've ever seen, Fire man's latter half of the stage also just throws a random gimmick at you that needs to be pixel perfect and then it never shows up again and I don't think I even need to comment on Ice man's stage. A lot of the stages you can clearly see where they gave up trying and just copied screens from previous areas.
TrashMan69 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:08 am
teaching the player before attempting anything crazy
This game is actually one of the worst about that. There's Fire man's gimmick (above), Ice man's foot holder section which is so terrible I don't want to talk about it (also in Wily 1), Guts man's lift section that seems more like it should be at the end of the level (terrible physics work against you here), Bomb man's splitting bombs which are easy to avoid if you know what to do but aren't well introduced and that annoying intro to Elec man's stage.

Also, Magnet beam looking like an optional utility but being required to beat Wily 1 is terrible.

Fire man's fight: exploitable
Elec man's fight: stunlocked
Cut man's fight: stunlocked
Guts man's fight: easy
Bomb man's fight: way too easy
Ice man's fight: the only one I like, it would be well made if he didn't kill you in 3 hits

Ice slasher, Rolling cutter (barely), and Fire storm are all acceptable weapons but...
Hyper bomb is trash, can't manipulate it's movements, doesn't explode on impact and takes forever for it to actually explode
Super arm could've been a good weapon if the blocks appeared in more than 5 stages (2 of the times being in only boss rooms) and that sometimes the separated pieces simply go through enemies without dealing damage
TrashMan69 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:08 am
there is no one dominating weapon like metal blade
Thunder beam. To simply further how much better it is than everything else it can also break the blocks only Super arm should be able to break. Plus there are no proper enemy weakness tables that were in 2 and onwards, most of the special weapons kill the enemies in 1 hit so why bother using anything else.

Everyone can have their opinions on Yellow devil but he just seems way too punishing for the first Wily boss, the clone robot was creative but the fight was seriously lackluster, "CWU-01P" as I've heard his name called, is just about RNG for where he spawns and nothing more. I will say the final Wily fight is good at least but that doesn't really excuse all the other poor battles.

Overall: this game is mediocre in a lot of aspects and could use a serious redo, and the Wily wars doesn't count. You can't polish a turd.
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Re: MM1 is good fite me

Post by LeonardMan » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:55 am

TrashMan69 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:08 am
weapons are also balanced in the sense that there is no one dominating weapon like metal blade
There is one dominating weapon, it's called Thunder Beam. However, you get it by defeating the hardest Robot Master in the game. In fact, the game's three good weapons, which also happen to be based on the coolest themes (fire, ice and electricity) all come from the game's toughest bosses, while the easier bosses give you weapons of more mundane themes (cut, bomb and super-strength) and are not nearly as good. The weapons ARE balanced, yes, in the sense of "risk vs. reward". If you want the broken weapon that kills almost everything in one hit and covers a huge area, you have to work for it! And not get it from one of the easier bosses like with Metal Blade...
TrashMan69 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:08 am
And then you have MM3 which includes Spark Shock, a weapon that is not good due to how poorly its use is regarding the level design of the game, there is almost no areas where freezing something would be practical.
No, Spark Shock sucks because of incompetent programming. They made it so that the sprite of the electric paralysis counts as a shot on-screen, and due to that mechanic where having shots on-screen prevents you from pausing, besides the obvious shots-on-screen limit. The reason it is not practical is because you quickly spend all three shots on the same enemy, and if you can't run under said enemy while it is paralyzed, you cannot switch to another weapon to finish it off (like you could do with Ice Slasher) and have to wait around and waste a lot of time.
TrashMan69 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:08 am
a few spots that are painful but still really good level design throughout most of the stages.
Except the Foot Holders section in Ice Man's stage, that was created solely to force you to use Magnet Beam, meaning that if you want to beat Ice Man first (a.k.a. do the Robot Masters in ANY order you want as the Mega Man series is often advertised), you simply CAN'T.
TrashMan69 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:08 am
And in terms of level design its MM level design at its finest
Except when they let you skip the Magnet Beam, then they force you to use it in Wily Stage 1. This is likely the reason why in the next games you get the utilities from beating Robot Masters instead of as secrets in the stages.
Bean man wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:09 am
Overall: this game is mediocre in a lot of aspects and could use a serious redo, and the Wily wars doesn't count. You can't polish a turd.
At least the weapons selection is better than MM2, as are the Wily stages (despite the Foot Holders and the Yellow Devil) and its relative shortness is better if you want a slightly more bite-sized experience (10 levels total). But still, it was the first in the series, the dev team wasn't experienced yet, you can't expect them to do everything perfect from the start.

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Re: MM1 is good fite me

Post by LightDaemon » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:31 pm

However, you get it by defeating the hardest Robot Master in the game.
No, the easiest. You can kill him in two hits using rolling cutter.

No wonder you find MM1 bad if you play buster-only without going for the proper boss order. :roll:
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Re: MM1 is good fite me

Post by LeonardMan » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:12 pm

LightDaemon wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:31 pm
However, you get it by defeating the hardest Robot Master in the game.
No, the easiest. You can kill him in two hits using rolling cutter.

No wonder you find MM1 bad if you play buster-only without going for the proper boss order. :roll:
That's because by playing it Buster-only I can measure the TRUE difficulty of each stage and boss, without cheesing them (that also includes no exploits like with Elec Man). By going Buster-only at all stages and all bosses, I'm basically judging them all with the same measuring stick.

When I do special weapon runs is when I want to confirm whether the weapons are useful or not (or if they're situational, as many of MM5's weapons are turning out to be).

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Re: MM1 is good fite me

Post by LightDaemon » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:16 pm

That's because by playing it Buster-only I can measure the TRUE difficulty of each stage and boss, without cheesing them (that also includes no exploits like with Elec Man). By going Buster-only at all stages and all bosses, I'm basically judging them all with the same measuring stick.
That's not how MM1 is designed. Some sections are willingly very hard if you don't have the proper weapon and we cannot really blame the game for that, except the M-beam section in wily 1, for obvious reasons.

The platforming sections in Ice man's stage for instance is not incredibly hard without M-beam, just very annoying. But definitely not impossible as you claim.

I see so many people telling me I'm bad at MM because I cannot beat it buster-only, well I'm sorry but at least I figured the good order and I know how and when to use each weapon, which technically makes me a decent MM player.

The game has obviously been designed for the use of every secondary weapons and even though it's far from being perfect, it's fair enough.

So no, MM stages are not meant to be played in any order you want, you cannot blame a MM stage because some sections are too hard without the proper weapon. However I understand most people complaining about MM1 because it's poorly designed most of the time (with the use of M-beam ice man's stage because too easy, it's unbalanced).

MM1 is not hard. It's not very bad. It's UNBALANCED.
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Re: MM1 is good fite me

Post by phunguy06 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:42 pm

TrashMan69 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:08 am
Fire Storm is a weapon that is practical due to its effectiveness of killing smaller enemies with ease like flea's and Susie's. And then you have MM3 which includes Spark Shock, a weapon that is not good due to how poorly its use is regarding the level design of the game, there is almost no areas where freezing something would be practical.
thats because mm3 is worse
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Re: MM1 is good fite me

Post by Nigel Chinclucker » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:21 pm

LightDaemon wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:16 pm
MM stages are not meant to be played in any order you want
If they're not meant to be played in any order, then what's the point of marketing it that way? Aside from 7 and 8, I can't think of any other main series game where you can't play in any order. That makes no sense.
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Re: MM1 is good fite me

Post by LightDaemon » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:28 pm

Nigel Chinclucker wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:21 pm
LightDaemon wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:16 pm
MM stages are not meant to be played in any order you want
If they're not meant to be played in any order, then what's the point of marketing it that way? Aside from 7 and 8, I can't think of any other main series game where you can't play in any order. That makes no sense.
You don't understand what I said. I meant MM1. It's too unbalanced too be played in any order easily, unlike MM5 for instance where you can pretty much make your way to the wily stages without having to worry about the order.

Why was it marketed that way? Because they believed it would be like that and failed.
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Re: MM1 is good fite me

Post by PoisonousGas » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:33 pm

Nigel Chinclucker wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:21 pm
LightDaemon wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:16 pm
MM stages are not meant to be played in any order you want
If they're not meant to be played in any order, then what's the point of marketing it that way? Aside from 7 and 8, I can't think of any other main series game where you can't play in any order. That makes no sense.
You can techinically play 7 in any other. But you need a password, so.... your point still stands.
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Re: MM1 is good fite me

Post by Yoshi2018 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:36 pm

PoisonousGas wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:33 pm
Nigel Chinclucker wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:21 pm
LightDaemon wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:16 pm
MM stages are not meant to be played in any order you want
If they're not meant to be played in any order, then what's the point of marketing it that way? Aside from 7 and 8, I can't think of any other main series game where you can't play in any order. That makes no sense.
You can techinically play 7 in any other. But you need a password, so.... your point still stands.
The password in also disabled in Mega Man Legacy Collection 2 for some reason.
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Re: MM1 is good fite me

Post by Royalguard » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:01 pm

LeonardMan wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:55 am
TrashMan69 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:08 am
weapons are also balanced in the sense that there is no one dominating weapon like metal blade
There is one dominating weapon, it's called Thunder Beam. However, you get it by defeating the hardest Robot Master in the game. In fact, the game's three good weapons, which also happen to be based on the coolest themes (fire, ice and electricity) all come from the game's toughest bosses, while the easier bosses give you weapons of more mundane themes (cut, bomb and super-strength) and are not nearly as good. The weapons ARE balanced, yes, in the sense of "risk vs. reward". If you want the broken weapon that kills almost everything in one hit and covers a huge area, you have to work for it! And not get it from one of the easier bosses like with Metal Blade...
I think this concept of "Three Hard Bosses" and "Three Easy Bosses" is interesting. As it implies the two-tier boss system from MM7 and MM8, may have been at one point considered for MM1.

I could see MM1 working with two sets of three robot master stages.

Hypotherical Tier 1 Weakness Triangle:
Rolling Cutter cuts the fuse on bombs.
Hyper Bomb blows up rocks.
Super Arm uses thrown rocks to break scissors.

Hypothetical Tier 2 Weakness Triangle
Elec Beam electrocutes the water in ice.
Ice Slasher melts into water and puts out fires.
Fire Storm overheats electrical equipment.

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Re: MM1 is good fite me

Post by LeonardMan » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:31 am

Royalguard wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:01 pm
LeonardMan wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:55 am
TrashMan69 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:08 am
weapons are also balanced in the sense that there is no one dominating weapon like metal blade
There is one dominating weapon, it's called Thunder Beam. However, you get it by defeating the hardest Robot Master in the game. In fact, the game's three good weapons, which also happen to be based on the coolest themes (fire, ice and electricity) all come from the game's toughest bosses, while the easier bosses give you weapons of more mundane themes (cut, bomb and super-strength) and are not nearly as good. The weapons ARE balanced, yes, in the sense of "risk vs. reward". If you want the broken weapon that kills almost everything in one hit and covers a huge area, you have to work for it! And not get it from one of the easier bosses like with Metal Blade...
I think this concept of "Three Hard Bosses" and "Three Easy Bosses" is interesting. As it implies the two-tier boss system from MM7 and MM8, may have been at one point considered for MM1.

I could see MM1 working with two sets of three robot master stages.

Hypotherical Tier 1 Weakness Triangle:
Rolling Cutter cuts the fuse on bombs.
Hyper Bomb blows up rocks.
Super Arm uses thrown rocks to break scissors.

Hypothetical Tier 2 Weakness Triangle
Elec Beam electrocutes the water in ice.
Ice Slasher melts into water and puts out fires.
Fire Storm overheats electrical equipment.
Hm, that's actually pretty neat, now that you mention it... And you could make it into two sets of four by throwing in Time Man and Oil Man (or Bond Man).

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Re: MM1 is good fite me

Post by Brazencoronet17 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:24 pm

It really isnt. People defend it for... What reason?

They best weapon of course, is thunder beam, even though it i s as glitchy as Lufia II.
Fire storm and thunder beam are too good of weapons. They can basically take out almost any enemy.
They wily stages are garbage. Wily stage 1 is filled with perfect jumps, whereas wily stage 2 is just wait and jump.
Wily stage 3 is... Really self explanatory. Wily stage 4 is the only stage I could call decent.
Stage design is poor, psychics are sloppy, I could write a book on how trashy mm1 is but I'm on a tablet and can't really do that and my fui Byers are getting tired THE G AM E IS BAD.
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Re: MM1 is good fite me

Post by Royalguard » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:51 am

Sometimes, I think people don't understand that Mega Man 1 uses "arcade design principals", and is the only main numbered title to be built in this style. A lot of early NES/Famicom games where either directly arcade ports, or built off of arcade type design principals, so it was a very popular way to design games in that era.

If you ever played a game that uses arcade type design principals, such as various arcade cabinets, you'd know that these types of games will usually go out of its way to intentionally frustrate and kill the player, usually to take away the player's accumulated score and progress, and make the player put in more money to continue the game. As Mega Man 1 is a home console game and "inserting credits" to continue is obviously not possible, continues are infinite, and the punishment for losing lies only on the player's score and their progress.

What does this mean? Well... Cheap enemy placement? Probably intentional. Frustrating gimmick usage? Probably intentional. Bosses hitting for way too much damage? Probably intentional. Ect... The level designs being cheap, is likely a product of the arcade design principals.

While yes, in modern days, many gamers would see this as poor design, but it should be acknowledged that this design was pretty normal for its era, and is moreso just Mega Man 1 aging badly in regards to the evolving expectations and tastes of gamers over time.

That all said, if people want to dislike/hate Mega Man 1, that is fine, people have a difference of opinion, but I think they should do so for the right reasons, namely the coding having a lot of problems. Awful player physics, clipping, wonky collision hitboxes, weird screen transition issues, bad AIs, the infamous "Pause Glitch", the infamous "Ice Man Stage Glitch", and much more.

Me personally, between Mega Man 1 being the first of its kind, and being built in a style drastically different than all future main entries, I find it kind of hard to judge it in relation to other games in the Mega Man series. Honestly, I think Mega Man 1 probably has more in common with The Power Battle and The Power Fighters, than the main series, in regards to design principals. I'm okay with the ups and downs that come with Mega Man 1's arcade design principles (and it aging badly), but I feel the coding problems can hurt the experience more than anything else for me. Overall, I'd say its pretty middle of the road quality wise.

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