(most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

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(most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

Post by Brazencoronet17 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:17 pm

Metroid: No thank you.
Dead Cells: Screw this
Hollow Knight: Nope

All 3 of the above games are critically acclaimed titles, Hollow Knight especially considered a commendable achievement in gaming. The above 3 games are also metroidvanias, a genre of game that's like a platformer, but with an emphasis on back tracking and getting stronger. What's the issue? Well I don't like metroidvanias.

Let's start off with Metroid. I hate this game and it's one of the most overrated and worst games I have ever played. Revolutionary my ass, enjoy entering 16-characters passwords (unless you're playing the famicom disc version I guess), looking at its graphical trash, I don't care if it's 1986 and the NES was growing the graphics suck and hurt my eyes. It's a fairly glitchy game too with enemies spawning where they shouldn't and being able to clip into doors to softlock or break the game as you please (If you're lucky you find a secret world glitch but to hell with that it barely happens) and the game is an overblown mess to the point that DONKEY KONG 64 100% is a MUCH MORE FUN OBJECTIVE THEN PLAYING METROID FOR EVEN 20 MINUTES. That is how TERRIBLE of a game metroid is. Here is a list of Nintendo games better than metroid:

-Mario tennis ultra smash
-All the mario mobile games
-CD-i games (They have nintendo brands so screw you)
-Mario Sunshine
-Any bad Nintendo game except for Metroid II which somehow ends up being even worse

Oh yeah and the final circle of hell for you: You're punished for taking too long. For playing the game. Metroidvanias are supposed to be slower-paced games that take longer to complete. AND THEY ADD A TIME LIMIT IF YOU DON'T WANT A BAD ENDING!? Yes I know this was the first metroidvania but that's no free pass. It sucks. end of story.

Dead Cells is just boring. It is way better than Metroid, but the movement is way clunkier and is bothersome and confusing. Whatever attempt they tried at making a story fails and the shop systems require way too much farming.

And I just don't care for Hollow Knight sorry

The metroidvanias I like are Super Metroid and Symphony of the night. But other than that I hate metroidvanias.
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Re: (most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

Post by 8JKN4 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:03 pm

ok but why is this in mega man discussion
you literally didn't mention mega man at all
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Re: (most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

Post by Brazencoronet17 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:06 pm

8JKN4 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:03 pm
ok but why is this in mega man discussion
you literally didn't mention mega man at all
crap I meant to put it in Other Games

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Re: (most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

Post by LeonardMan » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:37 pm

Brazencoronet17 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:17 pm
Let's start off with Metroid. I hate this game and it's one of the most overrated and worst games I have ever played
Actually, that's true. The first Metroid game sucked. The dev team was too ambitious and the technology was not up to par for what they were trying to accomplish, not to mention some other rather strange design decisions (why the FUCK do you ALWAYS start with 30 health no matter how many energy tanks you collected!?). That's why nobody remembered the first Metroid until emulation came in. Just pretend Super Metroid is the first in the series.

Or, if you dislike back-tracking or open-ended gameplay, try Metroid Fusion. It is story-driven (and thus linear, because you can only go places when the story requires it), and instead the fun comes from a sort-of Metal Gear thing where you can't trust the Mission Control guiding you (Oops! That was a spoiler, sorry...) and it has survival horror elements too.
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Re: (most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

Post by Royalguard » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:51 pm

The first Metroid on NES is overrated? I don't even know anyone who likes that game, not even Metroid series fans.
Metroid fans just pretend Metroid: Zero Mission on GBA is the first game in the series.
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Re: (most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

Post by Goldstorm » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:12 pm

I went ahead and moved this topic into Other Games. Please continue ranting against one of my favorite genre’s.

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Re: (most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

Post by LeonardMan » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:00 pm

Goldstorm wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:12 pm
Please continue ranting against one of my favorite genre’s.
One of your favorite genres, huh? Now I know who to tell when I get out an actual good Metroidvania level :lol: (Pharaoh's Tomb doesn't count, it was my bad first attempt).

That being said, I only agree with his view of Metroid 1, because it was ACTUALLY bad (for the reasons I previously mentioned).

Here is a list of a few Metroidvanias that are actually good (aside from Super Metroid and SoTN):
Cave Story
Momodora 4: Reverie Under The Moonlight
Knytt Stories (comes with level editor to create your own!)
Within a Deep Forest

...And that's all I can remember at the moment (that I have actually played).
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Re: (most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

Post by Brazencoronet17 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:02 pm

Royalguard wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:51 pm
The first Metroid on NES is overrated? I don't even know anyone who likes that game, not even Metroid series fans.
Metroid fans just pretend Metroid: Zero Mission on GBA is the first game in the series.
wait people hate it?

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Re: (most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

Post by ihazkirbro » Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:08 am

Ok, Metroid 1 i can understand because it was a NES game, but Hollow Knight? Have you even played it? Sure, it might be a genre you hate, but please at least give it a try before giving it criticism, otherwise its just not fair, and your opinion will be considered irrational to some.

To me, Hollow Knight was the first Metroidvania that i actually liked enough to beat. its got great graphics, a beautiful OST, amazing yet challenging gameplay, and an INCREDIBLE storyline to top it all off. Its not just a game, its a piece of art and its a masterpiece, i love it so much that when i saw this thread i wanted to rant as well, but i decided not to and to instead share my opinion about the game in a peaceful manner, you know why? because the people who made the game are nice like that too, we have people saying that we don't deserve the people two people who formed team cherry and made the game.

Just trust me on this one, its an incredible Metroidvania that's so immersive that it doesn't really feel like a Metroidvania at all,
if you get it, you will (most likely) love it too, but if you don't want it, that's fine, just please don't go around hating the game just because you hate other games like it or because its popular.

you get it or you dont get it, that's on you, but come on, the games only 15 dollars.
oh, and don't worry, i will respect your opinion even if you don't get it.
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Re: (most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

Post by DAS » Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:21 am

Metroid 2 was the best one don't @ me.
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Re: (most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

Post by Royalguard » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:34 am

Metroid II on Gameboy is actually a great game. The scope and ambition on such a weak handheld is rather inspiring.

- Passwords done away with in favor of save files.
- Map design and progression is more linear, has far less pointless rooms, and is better paced.
- Game's objective and completion rate is always within eyesight on the HUD.
- Music is used for better world building by opting for environmental ambiance tracks.
- Samus' controls and physics are revised and closer to how they would come to be in the sequel Super Metroid.

All this done better on a device with a fraction of the power, than its far worse predecessor on the NES.
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Re: (most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

Post by Brazencoronet17 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:21 pm

ihazkirbro wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:08 am
Ok, Metroid 1 i can understand because it was a NES game, but Hollow Knight? Have you even played it? Sure, it might be a genre you hate, but please at least give it a try before giving it criticism, otherwise its just not fair, and your opinion will be considered irrational to some.
I played it for 5 minutes like any good game reviewer would
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Re: (most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

Post by phunguy06 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:05 pm

Brazencoronet17 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:21 pm
ihazkirbro wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:08 am
Ok, Metroid 1 i can understand because it was a NES game, but Hollow Knight? Have you even played it? Sure, it might be a genre you hate, but please at least give it a try before giving it criticism, otherwise its just not fair, and your opinion will be considered irrational to some.
I played it for 5 minutes like any good game reviewer would
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Re: (most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

Post by Brazencoronet17 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:59 pm

phunguy06 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:05 pm
Brazencoronet17 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:21 pm
ihazkirbro wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:08 am
Ok, Metroid 1 i can understand because it was a NES game, but Hollow Knight? Have you even played it? Sure, it might be a genre you hate, but please at least give it a try before giving it criticism, otherwise its just not fair, and your opinion will be considered irrational to some.
I played it for 5 minutes like any good game reviewer would
i promise if you play it for more than 5 minutes you're gonna love it
Fine I played it for 4 I admit it
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Re: (most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

Post by Brazencoronet17 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:16 pm

Okay, if you want to hear some praise for Metroid II, at least it's more stable and the soundtrack is probably one of the best I've heard, ESPECIALLY on a thing like the game boy.
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Re: (most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

Post by Blue_Bummer » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:34 pm

Goldstorm wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:12 pm
... Please continue ranting against one of my favorite genre’s.
You sir, have good taste.
Royalguard wrote:Metroid II on Gameboy is actually a great game. The scope and ambition on such a weak handheld is rather inspiring.

- Passwords done away with in favor of save files.
- Map design and progression is more linear, has far less pointless rooms, and is better paced.
- Game's objective and completion rate is always within eyesight on the HUD.
- Music is used for better world building by opting for environmental ambiance tracks.
- Samus' controls and physics are revised and closer to how they would come to be in the sequel Super Metroid.

All this done better on a device with a fraction of the power, than its far worse predecessor on the NES.
I think a good rule of thumb, to fairly grade a game, is to compare it to it's peers in it's day. When originally released Metroid was very original from everything else to date, at least against anything else I had personally seen. I have fond memories of Metroid.

Metroidvania (exploration) games, like any other genre, is (of course) not suited for everyone.

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Re: (most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

Post by Brazencoronet17 » Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:20 am

Blue_Bummer wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:34 pm

I think a good rule of thumb, to fairly grade a game, is to compare it to it's peers in it's day. When originally released Metroid was very original from everything else to date, at least against anything else I had personally seen. I have fond memories of Metroid.

Metroidvania (exploration) games, like any other genre, is (of course) not suited for everyone.
But then that would be calling a bunch of s**t games good. How a game ages is an essential point of reviewing.

Most reviewers back in the day were blown away at terrible things because they looked cool.

If the CD-i Zelda games were so loved back in the day, then is that how it should be graded now? No.

Metal Gear (NES) was loved back in the day, but it sucks ass now, lacking stealth almost completely, a laughable english script, yada yada yada. Essentially if games were reviewed how they were back in the day, criticism would be completely out of the question and reviews would just be a page of praise, judging the game on presentation rather than gameplay.
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Re: (most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

Post by Blue_Bummer » Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:26 am

Brazencoronet17 wrote:How a game ages is an essential point of reviewing.
To a degree. Though what one reviewer finds attractive qualities in a given game, doesn't translate to the next reviewer. What you personally may find appealing in a game may not resonate to the next person. To ergo wholeheartedly purport unilaterally that "insert game here" is terrible because you personally find it loathsome does not make that game so for everyone else, though for you it may indeed be (because it lacks the traits you personally are looking for).

We are absolutely entitled to our opinions, but our opinions are not absolute. What's fun for me might be not fun for you.
Most reviewers back in the day were blown away at terrible things because they looked cool...

....judging the game on presentation rather than gameplay.
I'm noticing alot of focus on graphics in these comments, I never mentioned that myself. The exploration was what I focused on personally, combined with how the abilities offered in the game really made it fun for me. Gameplay was great, because I'd never experienced it the way Metroid delivered it.

Think of it this way.... Was the gameplay original enough to spawn it's own genre of gameplay, maybe? Why would we refer to games like "MetroidVania" if it wasn't for a genre of gameplay spawned by those titles (of course the second part referring to Castelvania II, another great 2D exploration game in my opinion)?
Blue_Bummer wrote:to fairly grade a game, is to compare it to it's peers in it's day.
Let me expound on that statement... Of course we can't judge by simply graphics, but gameplay elements would also be restricted to hardware limitations and the tools available at the time to use that hardware. Those limitations would dictate what a game could and couldn't do in terms of gameplay as well, not just graphics. Thus my peers to peers suggestion for comparison.

If we want to fairly review old tech it should be on the basis of how well the old did what it did, when it did it.

If something is no good simply because it's old, then by those metrics, games today will be garbage in a few years.. and so forth.

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Re: (most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

Post by LeonardMan » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:47 pm

Blue_Bummer wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:26 am
gameplay elements would also be restricted to hardware limitations and the tools available at the time to use that hardware. Those limitations would dictate what a game could and couldn't do in terms of gameplay
Metroid 1's big mistake here is that it was too ambitious. Being ahead of your time is not always a good thing. What you should NEVER do in a Metroidvania is have repeating corridors that look all the same (such as in Kraid's lair). And the less we talk about ALWAYS starting with 30 HP regardless of your max health capacity, the better. And that last one is a flaw that can be blamed ONLY on the game design itself!

That's why most of us ever heard of Super Metroid first, because it was the realization of all the wonderful things that Metroid 1 was aiming for and failed.
Bubble Bobble: 242483

Castle of Illusion:
1: 231053
2: 231057
3: 231059
4: 231062
5: 231064
Final: 231066

Mr. Gimmick:
1: 178176
2: 178177
3: 178178
4: 178181
5: 178192
6: 178198
Final: ??????, Hunt for each digit in the other 6 levels!

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Re: (most) Metroidvanias suck (Extreme rant warning)

Post by Brazencoronet17 » Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:04 pm

Blue_Bummer wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:26 am

Let me expound on that statement... Of course we can't judge by simply graphics, but gameplay elements would also be restricted to hardware limitations and the tools available at the time to use that hardware. Those limitations would dictate what a game could and couldn't do in terms of gameplay as well, not just graphics. Thus my peers to peers suggestion for comparison.

If we want to fairly review old tech it should be on the basis of how well the old did what it did, when it did it.

If something is no good simply because it's old, then by those metrics, games today will be garbage in a few years.. and so forth.
But rather than playing it safe with hardware limitations games aimed to go above and beyond. If something is impressive for the time, it doesn't make it any better nowadays. It feels like a rose-tinted excuse to say a game was too ahead of its time to be appreciated, because if the game is bad, it means nothing. It's technically astounding but it doesn't make it good. This applies to more than graphics, it can also be a new gameplay style that pushes the hardware or a unique control system. It could even be just how big the game is. But big games aren't automatically good games.

Also, if a game has a critical flaw of some kind, as long as it can be fixed in a patch or update, I'd say it will age fine. I mean try playing the original version of Banjo-Tooie, then play the port. The N64 original is no fun The port isn't that fun either imo

As Leonardman said, many things account for the game design itself. Game designers were not as skilled back then, but they can still make great stuff. Castlevania II's cryptic puzzles aren't cryptic because they were on the NES. That would be stupid. It's the game design that the DEVELOPERS made. Whatever flaws an old game may have are the faults of a developer. If a system has hardware limitations, work around it.

And a game being "bad because it's old"? That isn't at all what I'm trying to say. As a game ages, not just flaws can be unrevealed, but so can good points. Understatements and Exaggerations are a baseless rebuttals that can be shot down before they're even put up. If you suggest that I think every game made before 2000 is garbage, then you are beyond incorrect.
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