Game overs are somewhat useless

Discuss non-Mega Man games. Mega Man fan games go here as well
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Sphyria
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Game overs are somewhat useless

Post by Sphyria » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:03 am

Castlevania SOTN :

Game over screen ~15sec
Return to title screen
File load - - Checking memory card ~5sec
Loading file ~ 10 sec

I love the game but isn't that really tedious??

And the game isn't even that old! Game overs are just boring and useless sometimes. Of course SOTN isn't the worst example, it even turns out to be quite an easy game.

But in some old games I just feel like game overs serve a form of artificial difficulty. Let's face it : most old games are hard because they ask you to do all over again when you die, and not often because of the real trickiness of their level-design.
Last edited by Sphyria on Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Game overs are gay

Post by Royalguard » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:37 am

Then you have Game Overs that are a real hidden gem, like Bomb Jack on Gameboy, which has some great music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mKpw83Qmds

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Re: Game overs are gay

Post by Sphyria » Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:44 pm

Royalguard wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:37 am
Then you have Game Overs that are a real hidden gem, like Bomb Jack on Gameboy, which has some great music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mKpw83Qmds
Oh yeah, that one is great. I remember Silent Hill : Origins game over screen being terrifying :

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Re: Game overs are gay

Post by Royalguard » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:32 pm

I think one of the consoles most notorious for frustrating game overs is PS1, mostly because early CD consoles had some pretty rough load times, making it take a long time to get back into the action. Then again, I suppose it also varies by game and the optimization of its coding as well.

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Re: Game overs are gay

Post by LeonardMan » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:12 pm

It's true that Game Overs (and by extension Extra Lives) nowadays are an obsolete mechanic, or at least should not be part of the main game, instead reserved for challenge modes and such.
Royalguard wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:32 pm
I think one of the consoles most notorious for frustrating game overs is PS1, mostly because early CD consoles had some pretty rough load times, making it take a long time to get back into the action. Then again, I suppose it also varies by game and the optimization of its coding as well.
Maybe this is similar to what you claim about Mega Man 2, with the PS1 being in the middle of a transition period where Game Overs were mindlessly kept out of inertia and the game devs had not yet figured out they were not really needed anymore.

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Re: Game overs are gay

Post by Royalguard » Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:58 pm

LeonardMan wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:12 pm
It's true that Game Overs (and by extension Extra Lives) nowadays are an obsolete mechanic, or at least should not be part of the main game, instead reserved for challenge modes and such.
Royalguard wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:32 pm
I think one of the consoles most notorious for frustrating game overs is PS1, mostly because early CD consoles had some pretty rough load times, making it take a long time to get back into the action. Then again, I suppose it also varies by game and the optimization of its coding as well.
Maybe this is similar to what you claim about Mega Man 2, with the PS1 being in the middle of a transition period where Game Overs were mindlessly kept out of inertia and the game devs had not yet figured out they were not really needed anymore.
I think one of the first few major games to experiment with getting rid of lives and game overs was Wario Land 2 and 3 on game boy. The games focused more on puzzle solving and how much money and treasure the player could get to the end of the game with, and focused the consequences of inefficient play towards that. I assume they might have believed that lives and game overs took away from the sense of flow they where looking for with their puzzle gameplay.

The Gran Theft Auto games, especially 3 on PS2 and onwards, really made penalties a lot less significant as well, where instead of booting the player back to the title screen, or forcing the player to reload a save, they dropped the defeated player at the nearest hospital/police station on the map, and the player could be almost immediately back into the action. The series even started making earlier segments of failed missions like cutscenes, or driving to locations, completely skippable.

I suppose maybe the idea of turning against the concept of lives and game overs, was to make breaks in the action and flow less frequent and less abrupt? I'd assume the gradual death of video game rental industry probably had an impact as well, as needing game overs to stop players from beating a game within the rental period was no longer a priority.

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Re: Game overs are gay

Post by LeonardMan » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:10 pm

Royalguard wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:58 pm
I suppose maybe the idea of turning against the concept of lives and game overs, was to make breaks in the action and flow less frequent and less abrupt?
BINGO! That was the exact reason! That and not having to repeat all the levels from the beginning when you've already played them a million times. Here's two videos from SnoMan Gaming where he discusses this very issue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeSvCmaZUjA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1zhhd-JrqA

The second video in particular is why I said in an earlier post that extra lives should be only for a challenge mode, and not part of the main game.

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Re: Game overs are gay

Post by ihazkirbro » Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:44 am

Yeah, I never liked Game Overs, Probably why I love games with quick Respawn mechanics, Such as Hollow Knight, Ori And The Blind Forest, and Celeste. Especially Celeste, that game had one of the best methods of Respawning i have ever seen, if you die, you just Respawn in the room your in and can just try again, no lives, no penalty, and a very quick Respawn. Of course, not every game has the structure to have a Respawn mechanic as good as Celeste's, for example, if you put a respawn system like that in Terraria, you could die during a boss, Respawn immediately, and finish it off with that added damage from your last attempt, which of course, is not balanced. It really depends on the game, but game overs are almost never fun.
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Re: Game overs are gay

Post by AppendixOfTheCards » Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:37 am

Why do you use gay this way?

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Re: Game overs are gay

Post by DestroyerOfDestruction » Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:35 am

Sphyria wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:03 am
Castlevania SOTN :

Game over screen ~15sec
Return to title screen
File load - - Checking memory card ~5sec
Loading file ~ 10 sec

I love the game but isn't that tediously gay??

And the game isn't even that old! Game overs are just boring and useless sometimes.
Could you change the title to make it less... insensitive?
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Re: Game overs are gay

Post by D-Man » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:46 am

DestroyerOfDestruction wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:35 am
Could you change the title to make it less... insensitive?
AppendixOfTheCards wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:37 am
Why do you use gay this way?
He's using the old, colloquial form of the word gay, which was used as a synonym for lame, bogus, etc.

3. INFORMAL•OFFENSIVE
foolish, stupid, or unimpressive.
"making students wait for the light is kind of a gay rule"

Back to the main topic, you're forgetting Total Distortion's Game Over song, "You Are Dead".
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Re: Game overs are gay

Post by Royalguard » Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:59 am

D-Man wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:46 am
Back to the main topic, you're forgetting Total Distortion's Game Over song, "You Are Dead".
I forgot all about that, that song is amazing.

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Re: Game overs are gay

Post by AppendixOfTheCards » Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:25 pm

D-Man wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:46 am
DestroyerOfDestruction wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:35 am
Could you change the title to make it less... insensitive?
AppendixOfTheCards wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:37 am
Why do you use gay this way?
He's using the old, colloquial form of the word gay, which was used as a synonym for lame, bogus, etc.

3. INFORMAL•OFFENSIVE
foolish, stupid, or unimpressive.
"making students wait for the light is kind of a gay rule"

Back to the main topic, you're forgetting Total Distortion's Game Over song, "You Are Dead".
It was rhetorical, I'm well aware the intended definition, as a bisexual man pushing 40 I've had plenty of personal experience with it in life. It is offensive and ignorant.

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Re: Game overs are gay

Post by Sphyria » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:28 pm

DestroyerOfDestruction wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:35 am
Sphyria wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:03 am
Castlevania SOTN :

Game over screen ~15sec
Return to title screen
File load - - Checking memory card ~5sec
Loading file ~ 10 sec

I love the game but isn't that tediously gay??

And the game isn't even that old! Game overs are just boring and useless sometimes.
Could you change the title to make it less... insensitive?
Truly sorry about that, I admit I wrote this a tad frustrated by CVSOTN... :lol:

The game turns out to be too easy after a while, weirdly.

I also edited my original post :
Castlevania SOTN :

Game over screen ~15sec
Return to title screen
File load - - Checking memory card ~5sec
Loading file ~ 10 sec

I love the game but isn't that really tedious??

And the game isn't even that old! Game overs are just boring and useless sometimes. Of course SOTN isn't the worst example, it even turns out to be quite an easy game.

But in some old games I just feel like game overs serve a form of artificial difficulty. Let's face it : most old games are hard because they ask you to do all over again when you die, and not often because of the real trickiness of their level-design.
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Re: Game overs are somewhat useless

Post by DestroyerOfDestruction » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:35 pm

Coincidentially, the new title is vastly more useful to understand the topic. "Gay" was too vague and implied being completely ridiculous, while this title reflects that they are a minor annoyance and that the concept tends to be badly executed.
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Re: Game overs are somewhat useless

Post by Sphyria » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:24 am

DestroyerOfDestruction wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:35 pm
Coincidentially, the new title is vastly more useful to understand the topic. "Gay" was too vague and implied being completely ridiculous, while this title reflects that they are a minor annoyance and that the concept tends to be badly executed.
Haha dude, I know the reason why my title was a problem is not because it was too vague (especially since, as D-Man pointed out, it is a quite known and used expression by immatures such as myself XD) but because it bothers some people around here. Truly sorry about that, I tend to be (irreverently) politically incorrect sometimes. :?
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Re: Game overs are somewhat useless

Post by DestroyerOfDestruction » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:38 am

Sphyria wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:24 am
DestroyerOfDestruction wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:35 pm
Coincidentially, the new title is vastly more useful to understand the topic. "Gay" was too vague and implied being completely ridiculous, while this title reflects that they are a minor annoyance and that the concept tends to be badly executed.
Haha dude, I know the reason why my title was a problem is not because it was too vague (especially since, as D-Man pointed out, it is a quite known and used expression by immatures such as myself XD) but because it bothers some people around here. Truly sorry about that, I tend to be (irreverently) politically incorrect sometimes. :?
I know, but I still insist that the change was for the better as the title still was an upgrade in terms of clarity.
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Re: Game overs are somewhat useless

Post by Sphyria » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:00 am

DestroyerOfDestruction wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:38 am
Sphyria wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:24 am
DestroyerOfDestruction wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:35 pm
Coincidentially, the new title is vastly more useful to understand the topic. "Gay" was too vague and implied being completely ridiculous, while this title reflects that they are a minor annoyance and that the concept tends to be badly executed.
Haha dude, I know the reason why my title was a problem is not because it was too vague (especially since, as D-Man pointed out, it is a quite known and used expression by immatures such as myself XD) but because it bothers some people around here. Truly sorry about that, I tend to be (irreverently) politically incorrect sometimes. :?
I know, but I still insist that the change was for the better as the title still was an upgrade in terms of clarity.
Haha ok got it thank you. :D
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Re: Game overs are somewhat useless

Post by Royalguard » Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:38 pm

I do have to give the archaic concept of Lives and Game Overs one thing though...

The punishment of being sent far back in progress, possibility all the way to the beginning of the game, really gave me an incentive to become an expert at games I played.

Modern games with lesser punishments for losing, or classic games with save states, don't give the same feeling, as being persistent enough will eventually lead to you winning, regardless if your skill level improves or not.

Then again, the world is a lot more fast-paced today when compared to how it was in the 80s and 90s, thanks to the increasing ease of access to global communication and the internet. I guess some people just don't have the free time anymore to deal with concepts like Lives and Game Overs, and need their gaming experiences to flow better to fit into their busy lives.

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Re: Game overs are somewhat useless

Post by LeonardMan » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:47 pm

Royalguard wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:38 pm
The punishment of being sent far back in progress, possibility all the way to the beginning of the game, really gave me an incentive to become an expert at games I played.
Like I said in the earlier post, that's why Lives and Game Overs are better suited for the game's Challenge Mode. That way, those who just want to see the end of the story can play with infinite lives and persist until they see the ending movie, and those who want to increase their skill at the gameplay can play the Challenge Mode with limited lives and game over if they lose them all.

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