Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

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D-Man
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Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by D-Man » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:12 am

Disclaimer: This is purely speculative and should not be treated as an actual suggestion.

Originally, Centaur Flash was the successor to MM5's Gravity Hold, being able to do more damage at the same cost. Now, a buffed G. Hold exists in MMM, and it makes C. Flash mostly obsolete.

Basically, this thread is for discussing ideas on how to make C. Flash and other weapons like it distinct from the screen-wide weapons that we already have.
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by QuartexGames » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:22 am

Maybe... What if Centaur Flash just dealt damage and stun enemies ONLY on the screen we are?
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by Blue_Bummer » Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:56 pm

EDITED AGAIN after further research of Centaur Flash. Forgive me, it's been a long time since I played MM6.

Hmmmmm...

Basically it boils down to what "makes sense" for this weapon to do, that other weapons like it do not do, while at the same time not making the weapon over powered.

For ideas we could look at the robot master in question, Centaur Man, and maybe add an attribute from his attack pattern to Centaur Flash? After looking at that, maybe not.

Hm. so maybe this... Allow Centaur Flash to add Health to Mega Man when it is used proportionate to the health of enemies that it kills. :idea:

Essentially make it a screen wide "Grab Buster."

To make it not overshadow Gravity Hold cause Centaur Flash to require more weapon energy per use, thus it can't be used as often as Gravity Hold.

EDIT:

A second proposal I have is giving Mega Man Centaur Man's special buster, and when fully charged (like when you charge the Mega Buster) Centaur Flash occurs like normal. The buster shots of Centaur Man are similar to Mega Man's, but when projectiles impact on a surface they spread out in multiple directions.
Last edited by Blue_Bummer on Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by LeonardMan » Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:16 pm

The following idea is not mine. I saw it in these forums long ago and I believe it is the perfect buff for Centaur Flash. It is simple enough that doesn't drastically alter how the weapon works with overcomplicated gimmicks, yet adds a monkey wrench to it that makes it unique.

Basically, you use Centaur Flash, it damages enemies like normal, and you get automatically put into your "mercy invincibility" mode, making you invulnerable for a second after each use. This is supposed to mirror Centaur Man's teleporting ability.
Bubble Bobble: 242483

Castle of Illusion:
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2: 231057
3: 231059
4: 231062
5: 231064
Final: 231066

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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by Blue_Bummer » Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:03 pm

LeonardMan wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:16 pm
Basically, you use Centaur Flash, it damages enemies like normal, and you get automatically put into your "mercy invincibility" mode, making you invulnerable for a second after each use. This is supposed to mirror Centaur Man's teleporting ability.
That works for me. I'd have to suggest so long as Mega Man doesn't pause when Centaur Flash is used.

The short term invincibility bit is a nice touch, but it would only be useful against larger enemies and bosses with enough HP to sustain a hit from Centaur Flash. Still, it's true to the robot master it comes from and is useful for boss fights. Devs would need to code this weapon so that it works on multiple bosses to help keep it relevant, as Windman was the only boss this weapon would damage in MM6. Maybe make 1 boss from each MegaMan game weak to it, with Windman taking the most damage?

Another weapon I feel is obsolete weapon is FlashMan's Time Stopper.

I would suggest allowing Mega Man to fire buster shots just like FlashMan's buster while Time Stopper is in effect.

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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by LeonardMan » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:00 pm

Blue_Bummer wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:03 pm
Devs would need to code this weapon so that it works on multiple bosses to help keep it relevant, as Windman was the only boss this weapon would damage in MM6. Maybe make 1 boss from each MegaMan game weak to it, with Windman taking the most damage?
You forgot that Mega Man Maker lets us set each individual boss's weakness at will? It's simple! The boss takes 1 damage if Centaur Flash is not set to anything, 4 damage if it is his primary weakness, 2 damage if it is his secondary weakness, and no damage if you've set it to immunity. Simple as that!
Blue_Bummer wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:03 pm
Another weapon I feel is obsolete weapon is FlashMan's Time Stopper.

I would suggest allowing Mega Man to fire buster shots just like FlashMan's buster while Time Stopper is in effect.
The idea I had for Time Stopper is that, with the first press of the fire button, it works exactly as it did in MM2, but if you press the fire button AGAIN while it is in effect, you cancel the time-stopping and it stops consuming energy until you activate it again. This will allow you to design levels around a stop-and-go mechanic, where you pause/resume time flow to get through obstacles. You also want to have time stopped for as short a duration as possible in order to save energy.
Bubble Bobble: 242483

Castle of Illusion:
1: 231053
2: 231057
3: 231059
4: 231062
5: 231064
Final: 231066

Mr. Gimmick:
1: 178176
2: 178177
3: 178178
4: 178181
5: 178192
6: 178198
Final: ??????, Hunt for each digit in the other 6 levels!

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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by D-Man » Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:10 pm

LeonardMan wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:16 pm
Basically, you use Centaur Flash, it damages enemies like normal, and you get automatically put into your "mercy invincibility" mode, making you invulnerable for a second after each use. This is supposed to mirror Centaur Man's teleporting ability.
I was thinking of something like that as well, though my interpretation works slightly differently.

The invincibility frames would only be activated if the shoot button is held down after the Flash. The duration would be 2 seconds, and letting go of the button or switching to another weapon will end it prematurely. A sound cue will let you know when it's about to deactivate. It would deal the same amount of damage as Gravity Hold / Tornado Blow, and it's ammo consumption would be in between the two of them (5 units of energy).

Spikes and other instant-death hazards can be crossed with the Flash, but you can't attack again until you let go of the button. Also, only the enemies will stop in place when the weapon is activated.
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by D-Man » Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:28 pm

Blue_Bummer wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:03 pm
Another weapon I feel is obsolete weapon is FlashMan's Time Stopper.

I would suggest allowing Mega Man to fire buster shots just like FlashMan's buster while Time Stopper is in effect.
Wouldn't that be exactly like Bright Man's weapon Flash Stopper?
LeonardMan wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:00 pm
The idea I had for Time Stopper is that, with the first press of the fire button, it works exactly as it did in MM2, but if you press the fire button AGAIN while it is in effect, you cancel the time-stopping and it stops consuming energy until you activate it again. This will allow you to design levels around a stop-and-go mechanic, where you pause/resume time flow to get through obstacles. You also want to have time stopped for as short a duration as possible in order to save energy.
Something like that can already be done with Bright's weapon, though I suppose Flash's weapon would be more energy-efficient if toggling it were possible.

Besides that, the only idea I have for Time Stopper is to make it use 1 unit of energy per second (so that it would last 28 seconds at max instead of 10), and to allow switching to other special weapons while it's active. The energy bar will continue to drain while another weapon is used unless deactivated first. Weapon Blocks marked with Time Stopper will be destroyed when they spawn on screen if it is active.

With this, I imagine a level where the player needs to use Time Stopper along with other weapons, while also making sure it's ammo is refilled and not the others.
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by Blue_Bummer » Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:42 pm

D-Man wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:28 pm
Blue_Bummer wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:03 pm
Another weapon I feel is obsolete weapon is FlashMan's Time Stopper.

I would suggest allowing Mega Man to fire buster shots just like FlashMan's buster while Time Stopper is in effect.
Wouldn't that be exactly like Bright Man's weapon Flash Stopper?
My suggestion is when Time Stopper is in effect, MegaMan fires FlashMan's buster, which fires differently from MegaMan's buster.
FlashMan's buster fires in a spray pattern.

To keep BrightMan's Flash Stopper from being outdone, it can be the only one that allows shots through shielded enemies when in effect.. Flash Man's Time Stopper difference would be Flash Man's spreadshot buster but not able to shoot through shielded enemies.

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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by V1ralGam3r » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:12 pm

All of y'all want to buff Time Stopper to make it not be obsolete, but here's an alternate idea: leave it as the version that doesn't shoot, but allow it to be toggled off via switching weapons.

Hear me out - on the Editor's side of things, you may want a full time stop that Time Slow can't offer, yet also don't want players to be able to shoot during that freeze so that your stage isn't broken by the free murder spree that Flash Stopper gives. Time Stopper would be that alternative, focusing on platforming and avoidance as opposed to the more offensive weapon currently in MMM.

Remember, even weaker weapons still have a purpose. I'd like if we focused on weapons that aren't really unique at all as-is, but that's just a personal belief in the end. :)
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by Blue_Bummer » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:56 pm

V1ralGam3r wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:12 pm
All of y'all want to buff Time Stopper to make it not be obsolete, but here's an alternate idea: leave it as the version that doesn't shoot, but allow it to be toggled off via switching weapons.

on the Editor's side of things... you may want a full time stop that Time Slow can't offer, yet also don't want players to be able to shoot during that freeze so that your stage isn't broken by the free murder spree that Flash Stopper gives. Time Stopper would be that alternative, focusing on platforming and avoidance as opposed to the more offensive weapon currently in MMM.
Similar to the point and suggestion of what LeonardMan gave earlier.. From a level design perspective it makes perfect sense.
I'd like if we focused on weapons that aren't really unique at all as-is, but that's just a personal belief in the end. :)
Sure. We're just a bunch of yahoos bouncing around ideas for weapons that, at first glance, seem pointless to add to MMM. :)

Bubble Lead from MM2 is another weapon that has been left out by the MMM devs. Is this due to it's shortcomings compared to the superior SearchSnake of MM3 (and soon to be added Wheel Cutter of MM10)?

What could be done for Bubble Lead? :?:

Give it a charge shot ability that can increase a bubbleshot's size? Like say if a player hits the button and spawns the bubble, but holds the button in this holds the bubble to the player (like how MegaMan can hold a MM10 WheelCutter) and the bubble blows up like a ballon. Max size could be the size of Mega Man. Bigger bubbles cause more damage to enemies.

This could be another case of a level-creation-specific weapon as it's only merit.. Where a level creator doesn't want a floor crawler that can also scale walls. :\

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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by AppendixOfTheCards » Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:20 am

V1ralGam3r wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:12 pm
All of y'all want to buff Time Stopper to make it not be obsolete, but here's an alternate idea: leave it as the version that doesn't shoot, but allow it to be toggled off via switching weapons.
This would do it for me as well, especially if we could ammo-lock/set weapons.
Blue_Bummer wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:56 pm
What could be done for Bubble Lead? :?:
The fall through blocks from Wiley's stage would be one; any other homing weapon would run over the blocks but the lead will show you where the fall is? Or maybe the bubbles could be given a homing feature to hidden items in tandem with Rush Search? Or let MM jump off the bubble, causing it to pop, and the bubble can roll over fire? Maybe he could even ride the bubble a short distance before it pops, including up/down walls?

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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by D-Man » Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:48 am

Bubble Lead's a tricky one, especially since we have a buffed Water Wave in the game. Anyways, here are some ideas I have for it:

The basic weapon would be the same on land; two bubbles max that do 2 damage each, and would slowly travel across floors and down walls. However, the bubbles will also be able to travel across the surface of water if they fall onto it. If fired underwater, a second, bouncing bubble will be spawned in addition to the crawling one.

It would be between Search Snake and Water Wave, power-wise.
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by D-Man » Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:59 pm

Now here's a more difficult one: Yamato Spear

Its armor-pierce ability is shared with Laser Trident, who can also pass through enemies. It also lacks the rapid-fire that Needle Cannon has. The only thing I can think of is to give it more ammo.
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by LeonardMan » Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:52 pm

D-Man wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:59 pm
Now here's a more difficult one: Yamato Spear

Its armor-pierce ability is shared with Laser Trident, who can also pass through enemies. It also lacks the rapid-fire that Needle Cannon has. The only thing I can think of is to give it more ammo.
Stick briefly to walls and be able to stand on the spears while they're stuck? Or be able to pick them back up and regain 1 unit of energy every time you do? (like Yamato Man himself)
Bubble Bobble: 242483

Castle of Illusion:
1: 231053
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3: 231059
4: 231062
5: 231064
Final: 231066

Mr. Gimmick:
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by Hyenyaku » Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:48 pm

:lol: Can we implement CentaurMan's Centaur Flash? Which allow the user to teleport, or stop time and allow Mega to damage enemies that he go through? I mean it originally worked like a screen attack. But CentaurMan is actually a time-based robot. So... why not add time-based feature to the weapon? :lol:
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by AppendixOfTheCards » Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:18 pm

For Yamato Spear, maybe it could shoot on diagonals as well as straight ahead? Or maybe it can be shot in an upwards parabola?

For Centaur Flash, what about a time reverse weapon? Discharging it doesn't damage enemies but instead resets everything on the screen but the player's sprite to their initial state/position and freezes them there for a moment? Add a Time Stopper that can be toggled on and off and we would have a potent variety of time powers.

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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by Blue_Bummer » Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:18 pm

AppendixOfTheCards wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:20 am
Blue_Bummer wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:56 pm
What could be done for Bubble Lead? :?:
The fall through blocks from Wiley's stage would be one; any other homing weapon would run over the blocks but the lead will show you where the fall is?
This is actually a great feature native to Bubble Lead. This would make it serve as a great counter to Illusian Blocks, though what floor crawler wouldn't?
and the bubble can roll over fire? Maybe he could even ride the bubble a short distance before it pops, including up/down walls?
If Bubble Lead is made the only floor crawler to roll over fire and the fire be unaffected would be a GREAT feature... But can other floor crawlers do this? If Mega Man could ride on a Bubble Lead, being able to ride over Bubble Lead to cross Insta-Death Fire would be an amazing feature. Bubble Lead can only scale down walls though, not up them.
D-Man wrote:bubbles will also be able to travel across the surface of water if they fall onto it.
That might be too similar to Oil Slider for that. :\

Being able to ride on Bubble Lead, and it not pop over insta-death fire (not affecting fire hazards at all), would be sufficient to give the weapon excitement for players while still not changing it too much as to turn off Map designers. :D Map makers feel free to chime in on this.

Yamato Spear
I agree it's just like Laser Trident in that it goes through surfaces and pierces shielded enemies. There is one attribute that separates it from Laser Trident, and that is the Yamato projectile despawns when it strikes a target. So there's a difference, and that would be one that benefits map designers and not the player. So long as there's a genuine difference then it's an original weapon, thought not an exciting one compared to Laser Trident.

Like Centaur Flash there's a host of "Screen Nuke" weapons that are all the same. Let's take a stab there...

Centaur Flash has already been touched on...

Rain Flush is original because it aids the player to jump horizontally.

Tornado Blow is original because it aids the player to jump vertically.

Gravity Hold serves as the default Screen Nuke in MMM.

Which brings me to Astro Crush. I suggest that this screen nuke also be able to destroy any destroyable surface and tile in the screen. Similar to how Astro Crush can be used in MM8 to destroy surfaces to get to normally inaccessible areas. Let Astro Crush destroy Dust blocks, Ice Blocks, Cracked Blocks, Bokazura Blocks, TNT Blocks, you get the idea.

Looking at Lightning Bolt from MegaMan & Bass it would appear it offers temporary immunity from harm when used. I would rather see this screen nuke get that ability since it's native to it rather than Centaur Flash.

Black Hole from Gameboy Mega Man V is not quite a screen nuke but extremely close... It's difference seems original enough, sucking weaker enemies in and then spitting out a volley of projectiles. More like a juiced up version of Black Hole Bomb. I like it. 8-)

Last on the list is Tundra Storm's Power gear mode from MM11. Being a power gear requirement that might be enough to make it original. If not, just make it the only screen nuke to freeze all fire hazards like Ice Slasher can.

Sorry for the short novel... As you can tell I love this stuff. :P

EDIT:
AppendixOfTheCards wrote:For Centaur Flash, what about a time reverse weapon?
Holy smokes that'd be amazing... But that'd make it into an entirely different weapon and I doubt the devs would go for that.

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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by LeonardMan » Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:34 pm

Blue_Bummer wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:18 pm
Looking at Lightning Bolt from MegaMan & Bass it would appear it offers temporary immunity from harm when used. I would rather see this screen nuke get that ability since it's native to it rather than Centaur Flash.
If Junk Man machines or something similar were added, Lightning Bolt could trigger them all at once as long as they're on-screen, as well as electrify any other thing that reacts to electricity.
Bubble Bobble: 242483

Castle of Illusion:
1: 231053
2: 231057
3: 231059
4: 231062
5: 231064
Final: 231066

Mr. Gimmick:
1: 178176
2: 178177
3: 178178
4: 178181
5: 178192
6: 178198
Final: ??????, Hunt for each digit in the other 6 levels!

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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by Blue_Bummer » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:19 am

LeonardMan wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:34 pm
Blue_Bummer wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:18 pm
Looking at Lightning Bolt from MegaMan & Bass it would appear it offers temporary immunity from harm when used. I would rather see this screen nuke get that ability since it's native to it rather than Centaur Flash.
If Junk Man machines or something similar were added, Lightning Bolt could trigger them all at once as long as they're on-screen, as well as electrify any other thing that reacts to electricity.
Would be nice, but I wouldn't advise removing a natural attribute of Lightning Bolt (temporary immunity). If temp immunity is added also to Centaur Flash we're back to two separate screen nuke weapons doing the exact same thing. :\

EDIT:
Hyenyaku wrote:... Which allow the user to teleport, or stop time...I mean it originally worked like a screen attack. But CentaurMan is actually a time-based robot. So... why not add time-based feature to the weapon?
Honestly this makes more sense comparing the weapon to the robot master. Turn Centaur Flash into a freeze frame weapon, and then be able to teleport.

Could be possible to setup because teleport portals are already in MMM... Players could use Centaur Flash to freeze the screen, then place a teleport target within the screen, and then when the player teleports to the position selected by the player the screen unfreezes.

Would make Centaur Flash into an entirely different weapon than it was originally made to be, which again makes me think the devs would never go for it... Maybe if there was no freeze frame and it still was a screen nuke? Perhaps work like this? Player hits fire button, creates onscreen crosshair to mark teleport target location, player is immobile because pushing up/down/left/right moves crosshair, hits again to teleport and when teleport occurs the screen damage flash happens.

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