Bounce Ball Inaccuracy?

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D-Man
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Bounce Ball Inaccuracy?

Post by D-Man » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:36 pm

Is it just me, or does Bounce Ball seem a little off? When the balls hit a shielded part of an enemy, they get deflected instead of rebounding off of them like they do to walls. Was it always this way, and if this change was intentional, why?
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List of Weapon Analyses I made: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10244

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14Protoman
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Re: Bounce Ball Inaccuracy?

Post by 14Protoman » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:15 pm

D-Man wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:36 pm
Is it just me, or does Bounce Ball seem a little off? When the balls hit a shielded part of an enemy, they get deflected instead of rebounding off of them like they do to walls. Was it always this way, and if this change was intentional, why?
It is true, also when they hit a levitating wall blaster they pass through it without beat him.

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Blue_Bummer
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Re: Bounce Ball Inaccuracy?

Post by Blue_Bummer » Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:38 pm

Let me preface this by saying I ❤️❤️❤️ Bounce Ball and I appreciate and am so glad the Devs added this weapon to the roster. :) Love playing with it!
D-Man wrote:Is it just me, or does Bounce Ball seem a little off?
I notice the differences of Bounce Ball also. The first thing that jumped out at me was the reduction in the projectile size. Took some screenies to paste together below for comparison.
EDIT: SIZE IS ACTUALLY VERY CLOSE TO SCALE. See updated analysis later in this thread.

Image

We can clearly see that the projectile in MM11 is larger than Rock's head. In MMM Bounce Ball size is more comparable to MM7 Mega Ball when It's size should be closer to that of the projectile of Super Ball Machine Jr.

SuperBall Jr. Projectile size comparison vs Bass
Image

Watching the 2 videos below at 0.25 playback speed illustrates size differences. We can also see that in MM11 Bounce Ball projectiles will bounce off one another after separating as seen at 1:09 in the below video with two bounce balls colliding. In the MM11 video a Bounce Ball will also bounce off a destroy-able enemy projectile as seen at 1:17


MM11 Bounce Ball.
https://youtu.be/BaVRMJgR_Mc?t=63

MMM Bounce Ball.
https://youtu.be/_6HAwEQWEiA?t=48

Can projectiles even bounce off one another in MMM? Are the changes to Bounce Ball by design due to limitations of the MMM Engine or the changes simply due to oversight? :?:

EDIT FOR ACCURACY:
Originally posted that BB didn't collide much, but out of curiosity I watched the whole MM11 Bounce Ball demonstration video (link above) and noticed additional Bounce Ball vs Bounce Ball collisions at 2:10, 2:11, 2:15, 2:16, 2:19, 2:23 and 2:27.
Last edited by Blue_Bummer on Sat May 02, 2020 8:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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D-Man
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Re: Bounce Ball Inaccuracy?

Post by D-Man » Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:35 pm

Blue_Bummer wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:38 pm
I notice the differences of Bounce Ball also. The first thing that jumped out at me was the reduction in the projectile size. Took some screenies to paste together below for comparison.

We can also see that in MM11 Bounce Ball projectiles will bounce off one another after separating as seen at 1:09 in the below video with two bounce balls colliding. In the MM11 video a Bounce Ball will also bounce off a destroy-able enemy projectile as seen at 1:17

Can projectiles even bounce off one another in MMM? Are the changes to Bounce Ball by design due to limitations of the MMM Engine or the changes simply due to oversight? :?:
Well, I didn't know about that feature of Bounce Ball. While I do like how B.Ball combines the traits of Triple Blade and Rebound Striker, the lack of the latter weapon's shield-bouncing is something that I feel cuts into the weapon's creative potential somewhat.
Image

List of Weapon Analyses I made: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10244

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Blue_Bummer
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Re: Bounce Ball Inaccuracy?

Post by Blue_Bummer » Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:48 pm

D-Man wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:35 pm
Blue_Bummer wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:38 pm

We can also see that in MM11 Bounce Ball projectiles will bounce off one another after separating as seen at 1:09 in the below video with two bounce balls colliding. In the MM11 video a Bounce Ball will also bounce off a destroy-able enemy projectile as seen at 1:17
Well, I didn't know about that feature of Bounce Ball. While I do like how B.Ball combines the traits of Triple Blade and Rebound Striker, the lack of the latter weapon's shield-bouncing is something that I feel cuts into the weapon's creative potential somewhat.
I dunno. I think it gives strength to the argument to include Rebound Striker in MMM because of it's differences to Bounce Ball.

Where Rebound Striker gains speed + damage per bounce and can bounce off shielded enemies, I don't think Bounce Ball does any of that (correct if I'm wrong on that, not entirely sure about shield enemies vs Bounce Ball).

I hope the Devs patch Bounce Ball later on to make it closer in size/function to MM11.

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D-Man
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Re: Bounce Ball Inaccuracy?

Post by D-Man » Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:25 am

Blue_Bummer wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:48 pm
I hope the Devs patch Bounce Ball later on to make it closer in size/function to MM11.
I do think there is potential to make adjustments to the game's weapons between updates. I was messing around in the editor recently, and I noticed that Block Dropper now consumes 2 units of energy per use, while in prior updates it used just 1. This makes it a little more accurate to the source game.
Image

List of Weapon Analyses I made: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10244

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Blue_Bummer
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Re: Bounce Ball Inaccuracy?

Post by Blue_Bummer » Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:24 pm

Out of curiosity I watched the whole Bounce Ball demonstration video (that I previously posted a link to) and noticed additional Bounce Ball vs Bounce Ball collisions at 2:10, 2:11, 2:15, 2:16, 2:19, 2:23 and 2:27.

A trick that helps me identify the collisions is I also use the frame by frame function of youtube, which is the

, key

and

. key

So anytime I thought I caught a collision watching at 0.25 playback speed I would pause (K key) and then go frame by frame. The Bounce Ball collision property is actually far more frequent than I originally thought.

Maybe the projectiles are on a timer? Where after they spawn the collision ability (against other Bounce Balls) is enacted after a second of life?🤔

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Blue_Bummer
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Re: Bounce Ball Inaccuracy?

Post by Blue_Bummer » Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:42 am

Did some testing in MMM. Confirmed that BB does interact with destroy-able projectiles but when they strike those projectiles it does not change their flight path like in MM11.

Changes that would produce a closer duplication of Bounce Ball from MM11

*Bounce Balls redirect flight path upon impact of enemy destroy-able projectiles
*Bounce Balls bounce off one-another (can collide) after splitting from initial spawn


Did a mock-up image of what Bounce Ball might look like with Super Ball Machine Jr projectile size by recoloring SBMjr projectiles. EDIT: Too Large.

Image

And another MM11 image for scale... Notice Mega Man's head size vs Bounce Ball.

Image

EDIT: MM11 Bounce ball has slightly more width, but size is still very close approximation in translation to 8bit.
Last edited by Blue_Bummer on Sat May 02, 2020 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bounce Ball Inaccuracy?

Post by Blue_Bummer » Sat May 02, 2020 8:30 pm

Found another great MM11 Bounce Ball image for projectile scale comparison vs MMM Bounce Ball projectile scale.

It would appear at a closer look, if trying to bring the Bounce Ball to scale of 8 bit Mega Man it's actually very close. Still messes with my mind comparing the two, as MM11 Bounce Ball looks bigger. Trick of the eye? :?: It looks like the width of the MM11 Bounce Ball is *slightly* bigger, but not enough to warrant concern.

With the MM11 Mega Man model being so different from 8 bit Mega Man... Perhaps that's what's throwing me off. :?

Image
Image

So maybe the projectile is ok size wise? I still hope that two major gameplay attributes can be utilized that are currently missing.

* Bounce Ball bouncing off it's own projectiles.
* Bounce Ball changing flight path (bouncing off) when it strikes destroy-able projectiles.

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D-Man
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Re: Bounce Ball Inaccuracy?

Post by D-Man » Sat May 02, 2020 10:11 pm

I mean, I'm pretty much over it at this point. These features were probably cut to make it easier to program/use, and implementing them now wouldn't really improve the weapon by much. It's good that the devs are taking creative liberties regarding some content.
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List of Weapon Analyses I made: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10244

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Blue_Bummer
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Re: Bounce Ball Inaccuracy?

Post by Blue_Bummer » Sun May 03, 2020 4:01 am

D-Man wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 10:11 pm
I mean, I'm pretty much over it at this point. These features were probably cut to make it easier to program/use, and implementing them now wouldn't really improve the weapon by much. It's good that the devs are taking creative liberties regarding some content.
You're right. I know I'm being over analytical with it.

It's just that it's those little nuances and small details that differentiates one weapon from another.❤️

Even if Bounce Ball remains as is with no changes it's still a fantastic, unique and fun weapon to play with.

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Blue_Bummer
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Re: Bounce Ball Inaccuracy?

Post by Blue_Bummer » Sun May 17, 2020 3:39 am

Did some more studying. Viewing this video at .25 speed and using the frame by frame feature it looks as if Bounce Ball projectiles interact between each volley.

What I mean is, that the 3 balls from volley 1 will only interact with the 3 balls from volley 2. Any of the balls from volley 1 won't collide with one another, they just pass through.

https://youtu.be/ZR6zi5bLpPM?t=74

What's the benefit of allowing volley 1 projectiles to strike/redirect off volley 2 projectiles?

This enhances the true nature of the Bounce Ball weapon, which is to be a shotgun style room clearing weapon.

When projectiles interact they spread out offering greater coverage of the screen, rather than doubling over one another like MMM's current Bounce Ball does.

Ok. I'm going to give it a rest now. Hope I'm not wearing the Devs out with my obsession of the small details of BB. :)

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