Things we should probably give up on...

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Hikaru The Wizard 1107
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Re: Things we should probably give up on...

Post by Hikaru The Wizard 1107 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:10 am

LeonardMan wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:37 pm
Some requested features I think we all should give up on, and the reasons why...

Music changer: Let's face it, only about 1 in 1000 users make metroidvania levels and full-game levels with multiple differently-themed areas. The dev team isn't gonna add a feature than only less than 10 people are even going to use. And besides, the campaign creator would make the music changer even MORE situational by eliminating the full-game levels, leaving it to be used ONLY in the metroidvanias. Speaking of which...

Campaign creator: I know I suggested this one myself just a couple days ago, but the main issue is that it would encourage users to create multiple accounts in order to have multiple campaigns, which is frowned upon and clutters the servers with garbage. Until somebody finds a satisfying workaround for this problem, a campaign creator just won't happen.

Weakness/Immunity system overhaul: You know, that one where we want to set a boss's damage to each individual weapon to give them multiple immunities, weaknesses and such? Not only would it require to completely redesign the GUI for the boss weaknesses from scratch, it would also require altering the engine, and worst of all, BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY! Because the bosses for levels made in previous versions will absolutely HAVE to use the old system to prevent old levels from breaking! That's why I don't see this one ever happening...

Other Fire-element bosses from MM1-8: Aside from one idea I had for Fire Man that the devs likely disregarded, these guys are just impossible. ALL of them require flat ground or else they get stuck, most of them don't have any attacks that can properly hit the player regardless of where he is, and the one that does shoot at the player can't get his shots through tiles.

Having all 88 Robot Masters from MM1-11: We'll be lucky if we get 6 from each game. Not only because bosses are the second-hardest component to program (relatively complex AI compared to everything else), but also because every game (except MM9) has at least ONE boss that is not viable (said boss has a tendency to be either the fire one or the timespace one, but that's not always the case). MM11 is the worst offender in this regard because HALF of the roster is not viable!
It did not create why we should give up all this. It is still possible that the music changer can be implemented as a strong point of the new update.

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LeonardMan
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Re: Things we should probably give up on...

Post by LeonardMan » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:36 pm

Hikaru The Wizard 1107 wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:10 am
why we should give up all this
I JUST EXPLAINED it! You must be very young...
Hikaru The Wizard 1107 wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:10 am
It is still possible that the music changer can be implemented as a strong point of the new update.
The devs don't want to implement it. Almost nobody will have a use for it.

Hikaru The Wizard 1107
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Re: Things we should probably give up on...

Post by Hikaru The Wizard 1107 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:49 pm

Oh sorry, I hadn't realized that. Anyway, you can expect us to be surprised in one way or another, it won't be the music changer, but it will surely surprise us.

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LeonardMan
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Re: Things we should probably give up on...

Post by LeonardMan » Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:36 pm

Hikaru The Wizard 1107 wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:49 pm
Oh sorry, I hadn't realized that. Anyway, you can expect us to be surprised in one way or another, it won't be the music changer, but it will surely surprise us.
Yes, that it will. It will surprise us in the same way the Wily Challenge and the Online Multiplayer Level Editing did! In other words, some feature blindly copied from Super Mario Maker without considering whether that feature is good or not.

For example: the 100-Mario Challenge was a feature that already sucked in its origin game, and copying it blindly just because it was a Mario Maker feature resulted in a main feature that sucked just as much. Update 1.4 was only saved because of all of the OTHER awesome things surrounding that main feature.

Probably going to be online multiplayer, where players will be able to hinder each other as they try to beat the level (in CO-OP mode!).

Hikaru The Wizard 1107
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Re: Things we should probably give up on...

Post by Hikaru The Wizard 1107 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:06 pm

LeonardMan wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:36 pm
Hikaru The Wizard 1107 wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:49 pm
Oh sorry, I hadn't realized that. Anyway, you can expect us to be surprised in one way or another, it won't be the music changer, but it will surely surprise us.
Yes, that it will. It will surprise us in the same way the Wily Challenge and the Online Multiplayer Level Editing did! In other words, some feature blindly copied from Super Mario Maker without considering whether that feature is good or not.

For example: the 100-Mario Challenge was a feature that already sucked in its origin game, and copying it blindly just because it was a Mario Maker feature resulted in a main feature that sucked just as much. Update 1.4 was only saved because of all of the OTHER awesome things surrounding that main feature.

Probably going to be online multiplayer, where players will be able to hinder each other as they try to beat the level (in CO-OP mode!).
And what about the rest? Not everything was below our expectations after all.
Going back to the topic, now I see that none of this is definitely viable and there are no miracles to expect.
Only that...

SMAAASH!!! Puppy
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Re: Things we should probably give up on...

Post by SMAAASH!!! Puppy » Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:15 pm

LeonardMan wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:36 pm
The devs don't want to implement it.
When have they ever said this?
LeonardMan wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:36 pm
Almost nobody will have a use for it.
I've already explained why this is blatantly false, but whatever.

Besides, Robot Masters already are music changers. Making an invisible object that changes the music to any other level theme you want would not be difficult by any means.
LeonardMan wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:36 pm
Yes, that it will. It will surprise us in the same way the Wily Challenge and the Online Multiplayer Level Editing did! In other words, some feature blindly copied from Super Mario Maker without considering whether that feature is good or not.

For example: the 100-Mario Challenge was a feature that already sucked in its origin game, and copying it blindly just because it was a Mario Maker feature resulted in a main feature that sucked just as much. Update 1.4 was only saved because of all of the OTHER awesome things surrounding that main feature.

Probably going to be online multiplayer, where players will be able to hinder each other as they try to beat the level (in CO-OP mode!).
A glorified random level button is in no way comparable to a level asset that allows for many creative applications.

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Blue_Bummer
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Re: Things we should probably give up on...

Post by Blue_Bummer » Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:09 pm

LeonardMan wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:36 pm
....
Probably going to be online multiplayer, where players will be able to hinder each other as they try to beat the level (in CO-OP mode!).
I honestly expect Multiplayer level playing as a coming feature, built upon the functions of the Multi-user level building.

I'm looking forward to this feature, I think it'll be a blast playing with friends in it.
where players will be able to hinder each other
Hopefully the Devs will be able to implement a Co-Op mode and a VS mode to separate camaraderie from shenanigans. :P Though with level objects in play shenanigans are unavoidable... except maybe by only the most talented and thoughtful level designers.

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LeonardMan
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Re: Things we should probably give up on...

Post by LeonardMan » Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:24 pm

Blue_Bummer wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:09 pm
except maybe by only the most talented and thoughtful level designers.
Nope... Humans always find a way to shit on their peers' heads even in the fairest of environments. It's in our nature as primates who live naturally inside a social hierarchy!

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Blue_Bummer
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Re: Things we should probably give up on...

Post by Blue_Bummer » Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:53 pm

LeonardMan wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:24 pm
Blue_Bummer wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:09 pm
except maybe by only the most talented and thoughtful level designers.
Nope... Humans always find a way...
Think of it in terms of development of a MM game. Capcom was able to build levels that were playable. Some Makers could have the fore thought to develop levels that could be played cooperatively effectively.

Goes without saying there will most likely be many many levels that won't play well cooperatively, but that's the nature of a maker game.

There's plenty of singleplayer levels that are designed badly, but that doesn't justify shutting down MMM. :P

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LeonardMan
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Re: Things we should probably give up on...

Post by LeonardMan » Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:20 pm

Blue_Bummer wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:53 pm
LeonardMan wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:24 pm
Blue_Bummer wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:09 pm
except maybe by only the most talented and thoughtful level designers.
Nope... Humans always find a way...
Think of it in terms of development of a MM game. Capcom was able to build levels that were playable. Some Makers could have the fore thought to develop levels that could be played cooperatively effectively.

Goes without saying there will most likely be many many levels that won't play well cooperatively, but that's the nature of a maker game.

There's plenty of singleplayer levels that are designed badly, but that doesn't justify shutting down MMM. :P
I believe you may have misinterpreted what I said...

Let's put it this way: It's a form of Emergent Gameplay. The devs can never fully predict EVERYTHING the player will do with their games.

The important thing here is that, as apes that naturally live in a hierarchy-based society, it's in our nature to betray and backstab our own compatriots in order to rise above them in social status. It's the entire reason why bullying exists! Put two or more humans in a co-op game, one of them will ALWAYS go out of his way to grief the others to enjoy their misery.

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Blue_Bummer
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Re: Things we should probably give up on...

Post by Blue_Bummer » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:26 pm

LeonardMan wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:20 pm

Let's put it this way: It's a form of Emergent Gameplay. The devs can never fully predict EVERYTHING the player will do with their games.
While a map maker cannot predict everything, they can certainly limit choices and variables. Reducing paths, items, weapons are all possible thus limiting interaction and probability.
...Put two or more humans in a co-op game, one of them will ALWAYS go out of his way to grief the others to enjoy their misery.
This is an assumption. It is also a blanket statement stating that every human everywhere always betrays the others at all times.

While I believe evil exists and that humans are indeed fundamentally flawed, 100% of us do not exist to betray one another 100% of the time. When I play games with friends and family I do not consistently seek to undermine them at all times.

I admit I have at rare occasion, in jest, done something trolly to a brother or nephew. ;) Do I do this everytime I play? Absolutely not, otherwise NO ONE would want to play with me.

Purporting that everyone everywhere is betraying everyone 100% of the time is hyperbole at best.

I suggest you find new friends/acquaintances if your perspective is based on experience. Don't surround yourself with terrible people. :?

Donald the Potholer
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Re: Things we should probably give up on...

Post by Donald the Potholer » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:51 am

Probably the one item that hasn't been defended thus far...
LeonardMan wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:37 pm
Weakness/Immunity system overhaul: You know, that one where we want to set a boss's damage to each individual weapon to give them multiple immunities, weaknesses and such? Not only would it require to completely redesign the GUI for the boss weaknesses from scratch, it would also require altering the engine, and worst of all, BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY! Because the bosses for levels made in previous versions will absolutely HAVE to use the old system to prevent old levels from breaking! That's why I don't see this one ever happening...
How about a scaleback? Instead of 12 entries with anywhere between 4 and 16 values, how about just 2 toggle switches:

1. Immune to All: Flipping this switch would make all weapons not listed as a weakness or immunity do 0 damage; the weapon in the immunity slot (if active) does 1 damage instead. This switch would require the Primary Weakness to be active; otherwise it's auto-off.

2. A switch allowing the Secondary weakness to do the same damage as the Primary weakness. (Either 4 or 3, developer's choice.)

These switches would be set to "off" by default, which should help with backwards compatibility. And 2 switches would make the GUI alteration go from "colossal" (at best) to "doable".
Not all that active...

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memelord69
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Re: Things we should probably give up on...

Post by memelord69 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:26 am

LeonardMan wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:37 pm
Music changer: Let's face it, only about 1 in 1000 users make metroidvania levels and full-game levels with multiple differently-themed areas. The dev team isn't gonna add a feature than only less than 10 people are even going to use. And besides, the campaign creator would make the music changer even MORE situational by eliminating the full-game levels, leaving it to be used ONLY in the metroidvanias. Speaking of which...
This wouldn't even take much dev time tho. It's just the devs being stubborn. We can already kinda change music by throwing a boss in the corner of a section and letting it sit there doing nothing while the level continues as normal. Then we can make a second stretch with different boss theme. We can do this for every single boss theme in the game. We just can't do it with regular level themes. It's an extremely arbitrary and stubborn dev decision to do this lol. Music changing tech has been in the engine from day 1

Plus, if they wasted time on Wily Challenges and co-op level building (which is glitched and dysfunctional to this day from what I've heard from the 5 people that try using it), 10 people using the music changer would be a new record for these types of features lol
Triple Weapon Troubles 396416
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Disastrous Factory 391968
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LeonardMan
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Re: Things we should probably give up on...

Post by LeonardMan » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:38 pm

Donald the Potholer wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:51 am
How about a scaleback? Instead of 12 entries with anywhere between 4 and 16 values, how about just 2 toggle switches:

1. Immune to All: Flipping this switch would make all weapons not listed as a weakness or immunity do 0 damage; the weapon in the immunity slot (if active) does 1 damage instead. This switch would require the Primary Weakness to be active; otherwise it's auto-off.

2. A switch allowing the Secondary weakness to do the same damage as the Primary weakness. (Either 4 or 3, developer's choice.)

These switches would be set to "off" by default, which should help with backwards compatibility. And 2 switches would make the GUI alteration go from "colossal" (at best) to "doable".
I actually like your idea. I would find a use for both switches, and I reckon these two things would have been what most people would have used the new weakness/immunity system to begin with. AND it's backwards-compatible because it would not change what is already there! Good job! :)

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Royalguard
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Re: Things we should probably give up on...

Post by Royalguard » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:13 pm

LeonardMan wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:37 pm
Weakness/Immunity system overhaul: You know, that one where we want to set a boss's damage to each individual weapon to give them multiple immunities, weaknesses and such? Not only would it require to completely redesign the GUI for the boss weaknesses from scratch, it would also require altering the engine, and worst of all, BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY! Because the bosses for levels made in previous versions will absolutely HAVE to use the old system to prevent old levels from breaking! That's why I don't see this one ever happening...
I understand the difficulty it would undertake to overhaul this system, and I know it is probably impractical at this point, but I'd personally love to see it.

My preference for options would be:
Damage Taken - Base damage modifier range can be set from x1 to x28.
Damage Immunity
Damage Recovery - Base recovery modifier range can be set from x1 to x28.

Seriously, why is there no option in MMM to set a weapon to heal boss HP, this is an option that dates back as early as Mega Man 2, and still appears in some of the later games like Mega Man 7.

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Megamanvwxyz
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Re: Things we should probably give up on...

Post by Megamanvwxyz » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:10 am

Royalguard wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:13 pm
Seriously, why is there no option in MMM to set a weapon to heal boss HP
I'd like to know the same thing!

Also I'm for the Base modifiers with a range that can be set from x1 to x28
I'm melting! I'm melting!

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Blue_Bummer
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Re: Things we should probably give up on...

Post by Blue_Bummer » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:20 am

Megamanvwxyz wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:10 am
Royalguard wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:13 pm
Seriously, why is there no option in MMM to set a weapon to heal boss HP
Also I'm for the Base modifiers with a range that can be set from x1 to x28
I support this as well.

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LeonardMan
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Re: Things we should probably give up on...

Post by LeonardMan » Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:26 am

Royalguard wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:13 pm
My preference for options would be:
Damage Taken - Base damage modifier range can be set from x1 to x28.
Damage Immunity
Damage Recovery - Base recovery modifier range can be set from x1 to x28.
Megamanvwxyz wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:10 am
Also I'm for the Base modifiers with a range that can be set from x1 to x28
Blue_Bummer wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:20 am
I support this as well.
And how would you guys deal with the backwards compatibility issue that this presents?

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Royalguard
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Re: Things we should probably give up on...

Post by Royalguard » Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:45 am

LeonardMan wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:26 am
Royalguard wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:13 pm
My preference for options would be:
Damage Taken - Base damage modifier range can be set from x1 to x28.
Damage Immunity
Damage Recovery - Base recovery modifier range can be set from x1 to x28.
Megamanvwxyz wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:10 am
Also I'm for the Base modifiers with a range that can be set from x1 to x28
Blue_Bummer wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:20 am
I support this as well.
And how would you guys deal with the backwards compatibility issue that this presents?
Compatibility is certainly a big issue, not just for updating the boss options system, but a bunch of other features as well. I agree that the compatibility problem can certainly be more severe with some features than with others, especially in terms of massive functionality overhauls. Unfortunatly, I can't think up a potential solution at this given time (especially since I don't have any expertise in coding), I can only state that more customization for boss options would be something that I would like to see.

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Blue_Bummer
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Re: Things we should probably give up on...

Post by Blue_Bummer » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:25 pm

LeonardMan wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:26 am
Royalguard wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:13 pm
My preference for options would be:
Damage Taken - Base damage modifier range can be set from x1 to x28.
Damage Immunity
Damage Recovery - Base recovery modifier range can be set from x1 to x28.
Megamanvwxyz wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:10 am
Also I'm for the Base modifiers with a range that can be set from x1 to x28
Blue_Bummer wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:20 am
I support this as well.
And how would you guys deal with the backwards compatibility issue that this presents?
Same way other programming overhauls treat certain features? Grandfather old levels based on old code, all new levels run on the new code. Not sure if something this large could be compartmentalized like that, just guessing. :\

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