Let's end the debate once and for all!

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LeonardMan
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Let's end the debate once and for all!

Post by LeonardMan » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:25 pm

MM1:

What it improved (Over other action platformers of the time):
+It invented the Stage Select
+Invented the ability to copy your enemies' powers, and put it into a nice rock-paper-scissors mechanic.
+It made the Mega Man series.

Where it fucked up:
-It's a relentless game with no way to undo your mistakes if you fuck up.
-There's no way to save your progress (thankfully, it is a short game, with only 10 levels).
-Guts Man and Ice Man's stages are way too hard without the Magnet Beam.
-Elec Man and Ice Man are too hard to beat without their weakness or exploits.
-Out of the 6 weapons, 2 are almost completely useless, and a third one is too weak, meaning only half of the weapons are good.
-You can miss the Magnet Beam and it is obligatory to get through Wily Stage 1.
-The Yellow Devil's fragments move way too fast.

MM2:

Where it improved:
+Much-needed leniency in the form of E-Tanks to replenish your health
+Passwords to save your progress.
+You can no longer miss the utility items because you get them together with the Robot Master weapons.
+The music started to become really good starting from this game (especially Wily Stage 1).

Where it fucked up:
-6 out of the 8 Robot Master weapons are too situational (3 of them because they consume too much energy per shot), while Metal Blade is TOO good and you could beat the entire game with it alone if not for a few enemies being immune to it.
-The second half of the Wily castle is overall poorly handled, Wily Stage 4 is the worst level with the worst boss.
-Wily Stage 5 has no opportunity to refill your weapons before the boss rush,
-Not to mention the way you beat Wily Stage 4's boss causes you to come to Wily Stage 5 with empty Crash Bomber. Guess what the Wily Machine is weak to?

Where it stayed the same:
*Quick Man and Heat Man's stages are still way too hard without utilities (like Guts Man and Ice Man before them)
*Quick Man is just as bullshit of a boss as Elec Man, if not even more so.
*Wily Stage 1 is only a little better because you can't possibly miss Item-1, but that part is still hard enough that you can run out of Item-1 energy before finally making it up there.

MM3:

Where it improved:
+You have a new sliding move.
+You also have a new dog friend.
+None of the 8 main Robot Master stages is too bullshit (Spark Man and Magnet Man can come close, though).
+6 out of the 8 weapons are actually good! Of the 2 that aren't, Top Spin is only so because it requires trial and error to learn to use effectively, but after that it becomes a good weapon.
+While the Wily stages still require some use of Rush Coil and Rush Jet, you won't easily run out of weapon energy for them if you know what you're doing.
+It handles the boss rush stage better by giving you a short stage to replenish your weapon energy before re-fighting all of the Robot Masters.

Where it fucked up:
-The game's attempt to bring a fresh plot twist with the Doc Robots fell flat. The Quick Man and Wood Man Doc Robots are bullshit to fight, and the second half of the Doc Robot Needle Man stage has the same problem as MM2 Wily Stage 1, where you can run out of energy for Rush Jet, except now recharging it is even more tedious.
-The rushed development schedule also caused the game to be launched unfinished and the Wily Castle stages suffered the most for it. The castle is full of unneeded items, especially E-Tanks (it basically took MM2's leniency and cranked it up to eleven)
-All of the Wily Castle bosses are CRIPPINGLY weak to their weaknesses, to the point they die in just 4 hits each.
-Wily Stage 5 should have been merged with Wily Stage 4
-Neither Wily 5 nor 6 should have had any items before the final boss fights.
-Rush Marine is only useful in two places: the Doc Robot Gemini Man stage and Wily Stage 1. And even then, Rush Jet outclasses it even in that area and everything else (thanks to RushJet1 for pointing this out).

Where it stayed the same:
*It still has two bullshit Robot Master bosses in Needle Man and Shadow Man.

MM4:

Where it improved:
+You can now charge your shot for a stronger attack.
+This game's set of special weapons is hands-down THE BEST of the NES games! ALL of the weapons are good!
+It backpedaled on MM3's excessive leniency with E-Tanks and collectibles back to MM2's level.
+None of the stages is too bullshit. The closest it gets is Ring Man, and it's not so bad.
+None of the bosses is as bullshit as in the previous games, only Bright Man comes close.
+The optional items Wire and Balloon are helpful but not mandatory to beat the game.
+The formula for the Boss Rush and Final Boss stages got perfected in this game.
+The "fake new bad guy" plot twist was new back then, so it was exciting.

Where it fucked up:
-They should have made the charge shot wide from the get-go, but they neglected to.
-All of the bosses do WAY TOO MUCH contact damage (8 HP out of your 28 total), which should only be for easy-to-dodge bosses such as Toad Man.
-While having two castles to go through was exciting at first, both of them combined made the game way too long, and the passwords would only take you to the game's halfway point as a result. Should have been 3 stages per castle instead of 4.

Where it stayed the same:
*Rush Marine is still too situational, only useful in Dive Man's stage and Wily Stage 1.

MM5:

Where it improved:
+Wide charge shot.
+More balanced difficulty in stages and boss fights.
+Nice gimmick stages in Gravity Man, Wave Man, Star Man and Charge Man.
+Got rid of Rush Marine.
+The M-Tank is a good emergency item that makes it forgivable that they basically almost went back MM2's boss rush format (the entire stage before the Boss Rush is two screens with a single enemy), just use the M-Tank at the boss rush room and problem solved.

Where it fucked up:
-This time it was the weapons that suffered from the rushed development schedule, resulting in most of them doing 1 HP of damage to everything, while the harder-to-use ones like Power Stone and Gravity Hold should have been stronger hitters. At best, ALL of them are situational, and it causes you to play almost the entire game Buster-only, even when you're not aiming for that self-imposed challenge.
-The "Protoman went evil!?" plot is half-believable only because Protoman's status as a good guy wasn't entirely solidified yet (although this game's ending is what finally cements him in the side of good), but it's still not good enough to convince the player.
-This may be nit-picking, but I didn't really like the aesthetics and music of the Protoman castle, and the three first Dark Man robots are a little disappointing when you're expecting the series's usual "huge machine" castle bosses.

Where it stayed the same:
*The game repeated the same two-castle tedium that makes the game longer than it needs to be and the passwords relatively useless. Again, each castle should have been 3 stages long, not 4.

MM6:

Where it improved:
+It brought us the Power and Jet adaptors, the Energy Balancer, and not much else...

Where it fucked up:
-The Mr.X plot only works if MM6 is the very first one you play and you're new to the series.
-They make you go through the trouble of finding the real Robot Master in 4 of the stages to get the B-E-A-T letters, but then you forget you have Beat in your weapons selection and hence never ever summon him.

Where it stayed the same:
*Keeps the wide charge shot and the balanced difficulty
*Also keeps the stupid plot twist that is no longer surprising
*ALSO keeps the same two-castle bullshit that makes the game too long (at least they should have made a password take you directly to Wily's castle).

About the weapons...
After replaying the game and giving all the weapons a second look I find that the quality of the weapons roster is somewhere between MM1 and MM3, an improvement over MM5, but a step-down from MM4. None of the weapons is too weak, apparently, and the two that suck (Blizzard Attack and Plant Barrier), do so because they use up too much energy per shot. I don't know if to count this as an improvement or a fuck-up, considering how the quality of the weapons in the series so far has been all over the place.

My scale from best to worst weapons set for the NES games is: MM4 > MM3 > MM6 > MM1 > MM5 > MM2

MM7:

Where it improved:
+The shop
+Secondary uses or modes for every weapon, to the point your actions could CHANGE A STAGE!
+They FINALLY perfected the formula for the Wily Castle: 3 regular stages, followed by a final stage with a boss rush and Wily.
+Shade Man and his entire stage are really cool.
+The story was better than in any of the NES games.
+There were many secrets to find, and none of them was mandatory to finish the game (and you could just build the item in the shop if you didn't feel like searching for it).
+The M-Tank concept from MM5 was expanded into W-Tanks and an S-Tank.
+The good side of facing the Robot Masters in two separate sets of 4 is that you can put all the harder stages in the 2nd set so that the player will be more experienced when tackling them, a concept that decades later would lead to Shovel Knight's map-based progression.
+Beat was also given a more useful, less broken and less redundant function in this game, making him worth getting.

Where it fucked up:
-The sprites are too big in a misguided attempt to emulate the Gameboy games (when MMIV and MMV were the best-sellers at the time), which led to the common misconception that Mega Man only works with 8-bit graphics. In fact, the whole game resembles the Gameboy games more than it does the NES ones!
-They weakened the charge shot.
-I'm personally not bothered by having to tackle the Robot Masters in two separate sets of 4, but some people really don't like the reduced pool of options (though it can still be fixed with a certain password).
-While the bosses flinching to their weaknesses is amusing to watch, it can render their fights TOO easy.
-Turbo Man's stage is bullshit.
-Slash Man's boss fight is bullshit too.
-While the weapons are better than in most NES games (with 5 good ones out of 8), Freeze Cracker, Wild Coil and ESPECIALLY Scorch Wheel are weak and disappointing.
-Lastly, the Final Boss was the most bullshit one in the entire series!

Where it stayed the same:
*Err... Nowhere, really. Everything either improved or worsened. I guess this is the most ground-breaking in the series so far?

MM8:

Where it improved:
+We hadn't had such a good set of weapons since MM4.
+The boss fights went back to being balanced like in MM5-6, with none of them being bullshit.
+The bosses' flinching was toned down so that they only flinch at certain moments in their attack patterns, so that they don't become excessively easy.
+While Frost Man's snowboarding parts and Search Man's forced swinging sections were hard, they were not too bad.
+Having the cutscenes being actual anime was awesome.

Where it fucked up:
-The voice acting is completely unintelligible.
-The in-game art style is too childish (robots stretch and squash like they're rubber toys instead of metal robots).
-The sound effects for Mega Man jumping and landing were just as childish.
-The snowboard in Frost Man's stage wasn't that bad, but the one in Wily Stage 1 can go fuck itself. In fact, the entirety of Wily Stage 1 (boss included) is bullshit almost to the level of MM2's Wily 4.
-It got rid of the E-Tanks (though luckily the overall game isn't that difficult, so you don't need them as much).
-Rush was greatly nerfed.

Where it stayed the same:
*It kept the separation of the game's 8 Robot Masters in two sets of 4, though that allowed the dev team to make the later 4 stages impossible to complete without the earlier 4 stages' weapons and not suffer for it.
*The Wily Castle still keeps MM7's formula to this day (to the point even the fangames copy it!).

MM9:

Where it improved:
+BEST set of weapons EVER!
+It brought back E-Tanks, Rush utilities, and having all 8 Robot Masters available from the start.
+Also, a much-needed female Robot Master :D (that should have been a thing since MM2!).

Where it fucked up:
-It downgraded back to NES style due to the fans' misconception that Mega Man only works on 8-Bit graphics.
-Worse yet, it went all the way back to MM2's gameplay style (no slide and no charge shot) JUST because fans at the time were praising MM2 and whoisthisgit had not shown them the truth yet.
-The Tornado Man stage's magnet platforms suck ass.

Where it stayed the same:
*Luckily the Wily castle did not revert back to MM2 style, instead staying in the good MM7 style.

MM10:

Where it improved:
+The stages were easier than in MM9.
+You can play as Protoman and Bass (the latter comes in DLC, though)
+You get to fight the Mega Man Killers, complete with stages of their own and you even get their weapons!
(The latter two points were pointed out by GamerFromTheWeb)

Where it fucked up:
-The weapons aren't as good as MM4, 8 and 9.
-Trying to beat Blade Man with Commando Bomb is bullshit.
-Also, we no longer get a beautiful Robot Mistress boss. :(

Where it stayed the same:
*It kept the MM2 style, both in graphics and gameplay, which had no business being there at this point.
*On the other hand, the Wily Castle was also mostly kept the same as in MM7-9.
*E-Tanks and Rush utilities came back to stay.

MM11:

Where it improved:
+I haven't played this game, but it's good to see the series finally move on both graphically and in gameplay mechanics. I can't say much more until I finally get to play it.
Last edited by LeonardMan on Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Bubble Bobble: 242483

Castle of Illusion:
1: 231053
2: 231057
3: 231059
4: 231062
5: 231064
Final: 231066

Mr. Gimmick:
1: 178176
2: 178177
3: 178178
4: 178181
5: 178192
6: 178198
Final: ??????, Hunt for each digit in the other 6 levels!

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Re: Let's end the debate once and for all!

Post by Brazencoronet17 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:43 pm

MM11
Where it improved:
+Everything
Where it freaked up:
-Absolutely nowhere

I'd rather flex my muscles

Currently watching Pronto and Groundrill Man duke it out.

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Re: Let's end the debate once and for all!

Post by 8JKN4 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:17 pm

LeonardMan wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:25 pm
MM8:

Where it improved:
+The boss fights went back to being balanced like in MM5-6, with none of them being bullshit.
Aqua Man would like to talk to you, and he brought his unavoidable attacks with him.
LeonardMan wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:25 pm
-Trying to beat Blade Man with Commando Bomb is bullshit.
Uh, no it's not. Dodge his attacks normally, and everytime (except for the first time) he goes to the wall, fire a Commando Bomb, make it go up, then left/right depending on where Blade Mn is so that the shockwaves hit him, but not the bomb. Then run to the opposite direction to dodge his blades.
Since you're trapped when using Commando Bomb unless you used up all of the direction changes, this makes sure that you can hit him with the shockwaves, while being able to dodge him properly. Also, try your best to keep him wall-based.
Of course, you have to learn this to use the weakness against him correctly, but it's not like Blade Man is the only case of that happening... at least I hope not. Anyways, he's pathetic with Commando Bomb.
Hell Man: hotter than Heat Man, deader than Skull Man. Hell yeah.(Mugshot by MP64)

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Re: Let's end the debate once and for all!

Post by SMAAASH!!! Puppy » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:31 pm

Brazencoronet17 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:43 pm
Where it freaked up:
-People with light sensitivity can't look at Fuse Man.
Fixed.

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Re: Let's end the debate once and for all!

Post by LeonardMan » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:39 pm

8JKN4 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:17 pm
Aqua Man would like to talk to you, and he brought his unavoidable attacks with him.
That's only a problem when you're aiming for a no-damage run. He does so little damage that I easily kick his watery ass anyway. (by the way, there's a way to make him shake his ass at you as a taunt, but I can never get him to do it)
Bubble Bobble: 242483

Castle of Illusion:
1: 231053
2: 231057
3: 231059
4: 231062
5: 231064
Final: 231066

Mr. Gimmick:
1: 178176
2: 178177
3: 178178
4: 178181
5: 178192
6: 178198
Final: ??????, Hunt for each digit in the other 6 levels!

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Re: Let's end the debate once and for all!

Post by 8JKN4 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:45 pm

LeonardMan wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:39 pm
8JKN4 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:17 pm
Aqua Man would like to talk to you, and he brought his unavoidable attacks with him.
That's only a problem when you're aiming for a no-damage run. He does so little damage that I easily kick his watery ass anyway. (by the way, there's a way to make him shake his ass at you as a taunt, but I can never get him to do it)
1. Yeah, it may be a problem that way... but it's still annoying because of how often he'll use it unavoidably. He was doing it so much that, when trying to do the buster-only boss rush challenge in MMLC2, I ended up going for him first instead of Search Man (he's actually pretty tricky buster-only, specially on a time trial.)

2. What. How. I need to see that.
Hell Man: hotter than Heat Man, deader than Skull Man. Hell yeah.(Mugshot by MP64)

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Re: Let's end the debate once and for all!

Post by Yoshi2018 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:44 pm

8JKN4 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:17 pm
Aqua Man would like to talk to you, and he brought his unavoidable attacks with him.
None of his attacks are unavoidable, they are just harder to understand.
8JKN4 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:17 pm
LeonardMan wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:25 pm
-Trying to beat Blade Man with Commando Bomb is bullshit.
Uh, no it's not. Dodge his attacks normally, and everytime (except for the first time) he goes to the wall, fire a Commando Bomb, make it go up, then left/right depending on where Blade Mn is so that the shockwaves hit him, but not the bomb. Then run to the opposite direction to dodge his blades.
Since you're trapped when using Commando Bomb unless you used up all of the direction changes, this makes sure that you can hit him with the shockwaves, while being able to dodge him properly. Also, try your best to keep him wall-based.
Of course, you have to learn this to use the weakness against him correctly, but it's not like Blade Man is the only case of that happening... at least I hope not. Anyways, he's pathetic with Commando Bomb.
Alternatively, you can just shoot Commando Bomb forwards below Blade Man at the wall when they are at the left or right.
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Re: Let's end the debate once and for all!

Post by 8JKN4 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:22 pm

Yoshi2018 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:44 pm
8JKN4 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:17 pm
Aqua Man would like to talk to you, and he brought his unavoidable attacks with him.
None of his attacks are unavoidable, they are just harder to understand.
Are you sure about that? They DEFINETLY look pretty unavoidable to me.
Hell Man: hotter than Heat Man, deader than Skull Man. Hell yeah.(Mugshot by MP64)

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Re: Let's end the debate once and for all!

Post by Yoshi2018 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:49 pm

8JKN4 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:22 pm
Yoshi2018 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:44 pm
8JKN4 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:17 pm
Aqua Man would like to talk to you, and he brought his unavoidable attacks with him.
None of his attacks are unavoidable, they are just harder to understand.
Are you sure about that? They DEFINETLY look pretty unavoidable to me.
It lagged so hard I couldn't even tell what was going on in the second one.

However, in the first one, that could have been avoided by not letting Aqua Man corner them, because like Napalm Man, Aqua Man jumps to your location.
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G-Force huh? Sigh, it sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And don't expect me to clean up your messes.

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Re: Let's end the debate once and for all!

Post by LeonardMan » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:54 am

8JKN4 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:22 pm
Yoshi2018 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:44 pm
8JKN4 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:17 pm
Aqua Man would like to talk to you, and he brought his unavoidable attacks with him.
None of his attacks are unavoidable, they are just harder to understand.
Are you sure about that? They DEFINETLY look pretty unavoidable to me.
Unavoidable or not, I still find him very easy, even with just the Mega Buster (granted, I hit most bosses with charge shots almost exclusively). Mega Man has a lifebar for a reason. Aqua Man is by no means a difficult boss unless you're going for a perfect run, and I never go for one.
Bubble Bobble: 242483

Castle of Illusion:
1: 231053
2: 231057
3: 231059
4: 231062
5: 231064
Final: 231066

Mr. Gimmick:
1: 178176
2: 178177
3: 178178
4: 178181
5: 178192
6: 178198
Final: ??????, Hunt for each digit in the other 6 levels!

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Re: Let's end the debate once and for all!

Post by 8JKN4 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:01 am

LeonardMan wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:54 am
Unavoidable or not, I still find him very easy, even with just the Mega Buster (granted, I hit most bosses with charge shots almost exclusively). Mega Man has a lifebar for a reason. Aqua Man is by no means a difficult boss unless you're going for a perfect run, and I never go for one.
I never said he was difficult. I brought the topic of his unavoidable attacks when you said that none of the bosses in MM8 were bullshit, which I personally think is wrong, since Aqua Man has unavoidable attacks which can probably be considered bullshit. But that's ok, an opinion is an opinion.
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Re: Let's end the debate once and for all!

Post by Royalguard » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:41 am

LeonardMan wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:25 pm
-Guts Man and Ice Man's stages are way too hard without the Magnet Beam.
Subjective. Guts Man's Guts Lift section and Ice Man's Footholder section can be learned, and outside those sections of their respective stages, I don't recall anything else in their levels being all that challenging at all.
LeonardMan wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:25 pm
-Elec Man and Ice Man are too hard to beat without their weakness or exploits.
Upon further researching of Elec Man's AI, he ALWAYS attacks at the same 3 spots on the x-axis every time with zero variation, and once you know this, it should be pretty easy to avoid ever being hit by him, no exploits needed.
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Re: Let's end the debate once and for all!

Post by RushJet1 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:48 am

Royalguard wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:41 am
LeonardMan wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:25 pm
-Guts Man and Ice Man's stages are way too hard without the Magnet Beam.
Subjective. Guts Man's Guts Lift section and Ice Man's Footholder section can be learned, and outside those sections of their respective stages, I don't recall anything else in their levels being all that challenging at all.
I'll agree that Guts Man's Lift section isn't too bad as long as you realize that the lift lowers the second the left part of the lift hits the different tiles. It's pretty easy if you get that down right.

Ice Man's stage, however, is kind of random. You can actually fall through those enemy/platforms due to glitchy behavior.
LeonardMan wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:25 pm
-The game's attempt to bring a fresh plot twist with the Doc Robots fell flat. The Quick Man and Wood Man Doc Robots are bullshit to fight, and the second half of the Doc Robot Needle Man stage has the same problem as MM2 Wily Stage 1, where you can run out of energy for Rush Jet, except now recharging it is even more tedious.

*It still has two bullshit Robot Master bosses in Needle Man and Shadow Man.

-Rush Marine is only useful in three places: the two Gemini Man stages and Wily Stage 1.
1) Those bosses (and I'd argue Flash Man) are pretty bad, but they assume that you're using the special weapons at that point so they're not TOO bad. If you are trying buster only, Wood Man is insanely hard. Quick Man isn't too bad since his boomerangs do TWO damage to you, so you can just get hit by those and as long as you outdamage the boss, you win. Wood Man took me about 35 tries to beat with the buster for my playthrough. I beat him on try 20 or so originally, but wasn't recording. Even after winning there, still took another 15 tries.

Also Rush Jet doesn't consume energy when you're not touching it, so you can just jump repeatedly. You can also jump at the top of the screen and the game thinks you're at the bottom of the screen (???) so you can collect energy doing this (and take hits from projectiles).

2) Needle Man isn't nearly as bullshit as you think ... he's actually pretty easy once you get the pattern down. You can actually prepare for the slightly randomness in his actions... but I can see how a first time player would have big problems. Shadow Man though, yeah it's just random if he slides or throws, and it is the least consistent fight with buster only.

3) I'd actually argue that it is only useful in 2 places. If you use Rush Marine in Gemini Man's stage, you'll eventually have to jump back up to the main platforms (and will probably die if you don't know that). It's much more useful to use Rush Jet and just have it fly under you if you want protection ;)

I'd like to add one for MM5- where it fucked up. For me, it's the fact that you can't rapid fire enemies anymore. They all have some invulnerability like bosses do. This makes trying to play without charging your damn shot all the time infuriating. They fixed this in MM6.

Another "where it fucked up" for MM8 would be that each stage is very gimmicky, and the game doesn't really feel like a Mega Man game as a result. Search Man's stage is the only one that feels like a real Mega Man stage - the rest are like they took different game ideas and copypasted them into Mega Man.

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Re: Let's end the debate once and for all!

Post by LightDaemon » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:05 am

Another topic about a subject discussed over and over again...

Anyway, I feel like your complains about MM5 is of none importance whatsoever, doesn't make the game any worse... Same for the two castles thing, I don't see the problem.

NES games where not very long so it's a good thing actually.
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Re: Let's end the debate once and for all!

Post by GamerFromTheWeb » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:31 am

You forgot the DLC for Mega Man 10.
- Endless Mode
- Playable Bass
- Mega Man Killer stages with their special weapons

Also, I'd like to say some improvements from 9 to 10.
- Proto Man was available from the start
- Multiple difficulty settings for new and veteran players
- No shitty Wily bosses (Twin Devils)
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Re: Let's end the debate once and for all!

Post by Bean man » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:16 am

GamerFromTheWeb wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:31 am
- No shitty Wily bosses (Twin Devils)
Block devil was about 100 times worse.
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Re: Let's end the debate once and for all!

Post by Brazencoronet17 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:35 pm

Royalguard wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:41 am
LeonardMan wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:25 pm
-Guts Man and Ice Man's stages are way too hard without the Magnet Beam.
Subjective. Guts Man's Guts Lift section and Ice Man's Footholder section can be learned, and outside those sections of their respective stages, I don't recall anything else in their levels being all that challenging at all.
I can agree. I myself, practicing the Ice Man glitch have memorized every cahllenge of the stage, Footholders included. The only annoying thing with the footholders is the occasional glitchy collision when you get hit, but even then it is the majority of the player's fault. Guts Man's platforms are no different you just gotta git gud.
Royalguard wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:41 am
LeonardMan wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:25 pm
-Elec Man and Ice Man are too hard to beat without their weakness or exploits.
Upon further researching of Elec Man's AI, he ALWAYS attacks at the same 3 spots on the x-axis every time with zero variation, and once you know this, it should be pretty easy to avoid ever being hit by him, no exploits needed.
Intresting seeing how his AI works. I mostly lose to him because the hitbox of the Thunder Beam is so large that it goes a few pixels over the blocks where i could stand for safety, therefore you still have to jump when he attacks toward you.
As for Ice Man, yes, he IS difficult but he pattern is liner and technically no RNG is in the fight except for if he moves right or left, which shouldn't really effect you. Just hug the wall and shoot him.

I'd rather flex my muscles

Currently watching Pronto and Groundrill Man duke it out.

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Re: Let's end the debate once and for all!

Post by LeonardMan » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:26 pm

8JKN4 wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:01 am
I never said he was difficult. I brought the topic of his unavoidable attacks when you said that none of the bosses in MM8 were bullshit, which I personally think is wrong, since Aqua Man has unavoidable attacks which can probably be considered bullshit. But that's ok, an opinion is an opinion.
Well, if the boss is so easy that the unavoidability of his attack ultimately matters little, then it's at least not completely bullshit. A player not going for any extra challlenges is not even going to notice it. The bosses I'm calling bullshit are the ones that are exceedingly difficult for a common player that hasn't analyzed every little detail of the game's behaviors.
Royalguard wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:41 am
Subjective. Guts Man's Guts Lift section and Ice Man's Footholder section can be learned, and outside those sections of their respective stages, I don't recall anything else in their levels being all that challenging at all.
Yes, they can be learned, but said learning curve is a little bit too steep, especially for Ice Man's Footholder section.
Royalguard wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:41 am
Upon further researching of Elec Man's AI, he ALWAYS attacks at the same 3 spots on the x-axis every time with zero variation, and once you know this, it should be pretty easy to avoid ever being hit by him, no exploits needed.
Like you said, upon further RESEARCH. Refer to what I said to 8JKN4, where a common player is not going to analyze Elec Man that deeply.
RushJet1 wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:48 am
1) Those bosses (and I'd argue Flash Man) are pretty bad, but they assume that you're using the special weapons at that point so they're not TOO bad. If you are trying buster only, Wood Man is insanely hard. Quick Man isn't too bad since his boomerangs do TWO damage to you, so you can just get hit by those and as long as you outdamage the boss, you win. Wood Man took me about 35 tries to beat with the buster for my playthrough. I beat him on try 20 or so originally, but wasn't recording. Even after winning there, still took another 15 tries.
I NEVER fight the Doc Robots buster-only. I'm saying they're bullshit to fight even with their weaknesses.
RushJet1 wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:48 am
Also Rush Jet doesn't consume energy when you're not touching it, so you can just jump repeatedly. You can also jump at the top of the screen and the game thinks you're at the bottom of the screen (???) so you can collect energy doing this (and take hits from projectiles).
I was assuming no use of glitches...
RushJet1 wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:48 am
3) I'd actually argue that it is only useful in 2 places. If you use Rush Marine in Gemini Man's stage, you'll eventually have to jump back up to the main platforms (and will probably die if you don't know that). It's much more useful to use Rush Jet and just have it fly under you if you want protection
Hmmm, you're right here :| Maybe I should update my post.
RushJet1 wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:48 am
I'd like to add one for MM5- where it fucked up. For me, it's the fact that you can't rapid fire enemies anymore. They all have some invulnerability like bosses do. This makes trying to play without charging your damn shot all the time infuriating. They fixed this in MM6.
I thought only The Wily Wars had this problem. I probably failed to notice it because I use the charge shot so damn much...
RushJet1 wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:48 am
Another "where it fucked up" for MM8 would be that each stage is very gimmicky, and the game doesn't really feel like a Mega Man game as a result. Search Man's stage is the only one that feels like a real Mega Man stage - the rest are like they took different game ideas and copypasted them into Mega Man.
Maybe, but the only gimmick I think is a real fuck-up among those is the sled in Frost Man stage. Also, I don't recall any weird gimmicks in Grenade Man's stage. I think what makes MM8 feel less Megaman-like is not so much the stage gimmicks as it's the gameplay changes like getting rid of the E-Tanks and the Rush utilities, among other things.
LightDaemon wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:05 am
Anyway, I feel like your complains about MM5 is of none importance whatsoever, doesn't make the game any worse...
Hmmm... Okay, I'll give you that for the latter two complaints about it, but I'll stand my ground about the weapons. Remember the Cyber-Elves from Mega Man Zero? Remember how you completely forgot they existed because they were all very situational and ended up beating the game without using a single one of them? MM5's weapons have the same problem.
LightDaemon wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:05 am
for the two castles thing, I don't see the problem.
I'll give you two:
1) Causes the endgame to drag on for too long, though thankfully Wily Stage 3 and 4 are always very short in all three games, and so is Dark Man 4.
2) The usefulness of passwords is diminished significantly because they can only get you up to the halfway point of the game. At the very least there should have been one more password that took you to Wily Stage 1 directly.
GamerFromTheWeb wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:31 am
You forgot the DLC for Mega Man 10.
- Endless Mode
- Playable Bass
- Mega Man Killer stages with their special weapons

Also, I'd like to say some improvements from 9 to 10.
- Proto Man was available from the start
- Multiple difficulty settings for new and veteran players
- No shitty Wily bosses (Twin Devils)
I've yet to play the DLC, but I will add some of your points to my list. I haven't beaten MM10 yet...
Bubble Bobble: 242483

Castle of Illusion:
1: 231053
2: 231057
3: 231059
4: 231062
5: 231064
Final: 231066

Mr. Gimmick:
1: 178176
2: 178177
3: 178178
4: 178181
5: 178192
6: 178198
Final: ??????, Hunt for each digit in the other 6 levels!

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Re: Let's end the debate once and for all!

Post by LightDaemon » Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:05 pm

Most weapons in every NES MM are situational. I just rarely use them aside from the bosses so I tend to think it's not a valid complain as far as MM5 is concerned.

MM5 ending doesn't really drag on for too long. I mean the game is pretty short like most NES titles, I really don't see the problem with having two castles...

I don't use passwords... It's not the best argument to claim MM5 isn't goods.

I never played MM0 and I don't intend to plat it in all honesty.
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Re: Let's end the debate once and for all!

Post by LeonardMan » Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:28 pm

LightDaemon wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:05 pm
Most weapons in every NES MM are situational. I just rarely use them aside from the bosses so I tend to think it's not a valid complain as far as MM5 is concerned.
My rule of thumb to determine whether a weapon is good or not is when you can run almost the entire stage with that weapon alone, and can do it on more than one stage. The reason? Because then the weapon feels like a gameplay option. This means that when you're bored from doing stages buster-only, you can switch to that weapon and get a different experience. I find it hard to do this with most MM5 weapons, though I've found that none of them is completely useless.

Screen-nukes such as Gravity Hold are exempt from this rule, because their low ammo count is meant to balance their full-screen coverage and, in most cases, their sheer attack power.
Bubble Bobble: 242483

Castle of Illusion:
1: 231053
2: 231057
3: 231059
4: 231062
5: 231064
Final: 231066

Mr. Gimmick:
1: 178176
2: 178177
3: 178178
4: 178181
5: 178192
6: 178198
Final: ??????, Hunt for each digit in the other 6 levels!

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