Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

General discussion of Mega Man Maker
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orcy88
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by orcy88 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:58 am

Being able to ride on Bubble Lead, and it not pop over insta-death fire (not affecting fire hazards at all), would be sufficient to give the weapon excitement for players while still not changing it too much as to turn off Map designers. :D Map makers feel free to chime in on this.
How about turn Bubble lead when used underwater to these things in MM5 Waveman stage.

https://youtu.be/JE2oujPetCw?t=67

One bubble shot will create a small bubble platform, two shots will form the huge bubble.
It will start moving vertically after 1 sec.
Small bubble travels the fastest but will pop after 2 sec the moment you step on it.
Huge bubble travels slow but will not pop even when stepped on. It travels vertically until it reaches the top of the water or if it hits a wall.
Auto side scrolling when?

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Blue_Bummer
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by Blue_Bummer » Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:55 am

orcy88 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:58 am
Being able to ride on Bubble Lead, and it not pop over insta-death fire (not affecting fire hazards at all), would be sufficient to give the weapon excitement for players while still not changing it too much as to turn off Map designers. :D Map makers feel free to chime in on this.
How about turn Bubble lead when used underwater to these things in MM5 Waveman stage.

https://youtu.be/JE2oujPetCw?t=67
I like that. MMM has a weapon that reacts differently underwater (WaterWave), so this suggestion might possibly become reality. D-man suggested a different underwater attribute as well...
D-man wrote:If fired underwater, a second, bouncing bubble will be spawned in addition to the crawling one.
This is appears modeled after Bubble Man's attack pattern. His Bubble Lead is used underwater and it doesn't floor crawl but the bubbles bounce, and Bubble Man fires 3 at a time.

https://youtu.be/XtGAte67Ir0?t=155
my earlier self wrote:Being able to ride on Bubble Lead, and it not pop over insta-death fire (not affecting fire hazards at all), would be sufficient to give the weapon excitement for players while still not changing it too much as to turn off Map designers. :D Map makers feel free to chime in on this.
Let me add to this... Bubble lead being able to be jumped upon and rode upon across insta-death fire, unignited oil (to move faster), and Force Beams. Bubble Lead does not allow the player to pass through these things, simply ride across (horizontally) without damage.

I'm unsure if Bubble Lead has the ability to roll over spikes? If it does already then if the player attempts to jump upon Bubble Lead it will pop.

To aid in the usability of Bubble Lead as a platform, I also suggest it bounce back off walls like Wind Storm. Simple enough because Bubble Lead in it's native state cannot scale walls, only slide down a wall if it was already attached to the floor above it.

When underwater I think Bubble Lead should react either like the Bubble Man boss fight, or similar to orcy88 suggestion.

I think Bubble Lead projectiles should be bumped to 3 total instead of 2. Like Bubble Man boss fight maximum or like MegaBuster maximum projectile count.

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D-Man
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by D-Man » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:10 am

Blue_Bummer wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:55 am
my earlier self wrote:Being able to ride on Bubble Lead, and it not pop over insta-death fire (not affecting fire hazards at all), would be sufficient to give the weapon excitement for players while still not changing it too much as to turn off Map designers. :D Map makers feel free to chime in on this.
Let me add to this... Bubble lead being able to be jumped upon and rode upon across insta-death fire, unignited oil (to move faster), and Force Beams. Bubble Lead does not allow the player to pass through these things, simply ride across (horizontally) without damage.

I'm unsure if Bubble Lead has the ability to roll over spikes? If it does already then if the player attempts to jump upon Bubble Lead it will pop.

To aid in the usability of Bubble Lead as a platform, I also suggest it bounce back off walls like Wind Storm. Simple enough because Bubble Lead in it's native state cannot scale walls, only slide down a wall if it was already attached to the floor above it.

I think Bubble Lead projectiles should be bumped to 3 total instead of 2. Like Bubble Man boss fight maximum or like MegaBuster maximum projectile count.
I'm not too sold on the idea of being able to ride over hazards w/ Bubble Lead, since something like that can already be done with Item-3 (has anyone used Item-3?)

The "travels over the surface of water" idea I had differs from Oil Slider since it will only be the projectile that rides over it, not the user. O. Slider's projectiles also float straight up when used in water. The "bouncing bubble underwater" idea would work exactly like Bubble Man's version.

Finally, I think Bubble Lead should stay at 2 projectiles total since they are stronger than Search Snake's (which deal 1 damage and are faster)

When coming up with ideas for it, I was also taking into account Ice Wave (which pierces through shields), Plug Ball (which is really fast and goes on ceilings), and Scramble Thunder (the peak of crawling weapons).

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D-Man
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by D-Man » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:27 am

Blue_Bummer wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:18 pm
Yamato Spear
I agree it's just like Laser Trident in that it goes through surfaces and pierces shielded enemies. There is one attribute that separates it from Laser Trident, and that is the Yamato projectile despawns when it strikes a target. So there's a difference, and that would be one that benefits map designers and not the player. So long as there's a genuine difference then it's an original weapon, thought not an exciting one compared to Laser Trident.
Another thing L. Trident can do is break Magma Beams that are frozen with Concrete Shot.
I noticed that Y. Spear randomly fires at an upward/downward slant when used, so being able to manually aim it with up/down input (along with slightly more ammo) could be enough to put it on par with the competition.
Blue_Bummer wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:18 pm
Which brings me to Astro Crush. I suggest that this screen nuke also be able to destroy any destroyable surface and tile in the screen. Similar to how Astro Crush can be used in MM8 to destroy surfaces to get to normally inaccessible areas. Let Astro Crush destroy Dust blocks, Ice Blocks, Cracked Blocks, Bokazura Blocks, TNT Blocks, you get the idea.
I like the sound of this, though I think TNT Blocks should only be reserved for fire-based weapons. In MM8, Astro Crush does 12 units of damage (it can destroy Sydecka in one hit), and can hit bosses twice, which even it's low ammo count would not be able to balance. I would suggest removing the invincibility granted by this weapon, giving it some risk to using it (like Metal Anchor's charge in X6).
Blue_Bummer wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:18 pm
Looking at Lightning Bolt from MegaMan & Bass it would appear it offers temporary immunity from harm when used. I would rather see this screen nuke get that ability since it's native to it rather than Centaur Flash.
Assuming Astro Crush's invincibility is removed, the Lightnig Bolt would be distinct since it would keep them, along with it's electric-based attributes. The weapon originally did 4x4 damage, so lowering it to 2x4 would make its power less than A. Crush, but more than the other screen nukes.
Blue_Bummer wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:18 pm
Black Hole from Gameboy Mega Man V is not quite a screen nuke but extremely close... It's difference seems original enough, sucking weaker enemies in and then spitting out a volley of projectiles. More like a juiced up version of Black Hole Bomb. I like it. 8-)
Black Hole is fine enough the way it is. It's like a fusion of BHB and Power Stone.
Blue_Bummer wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:18 pm
Last on the list is Tundra Storm's Power gear mode from MM11. Being a power gear requirement that might be enough to make it original. If not, just make it the only screen nuke to freeze all fire hazards like Ice Slasher can.
I don't think the devs will try to implement the Double Gear system in MMM (since there are over 60 weapons, and reserving it for the MM11 arsenal would be a waste). Tundra Storm can work just the way it is, being able to obliterate anything above and below the user. It's a pseudo-screen nuke, basically.

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Blue_Bummer
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by Blue_Bummer » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:07 pm

D-Man wrote:I'm not too sold on the idea of being able to ride over hazards w/ Bubble Lead, since something like that can already be done with Item-3 (has anyone used Item-3?)
Fair enough. I'd be excited just to see Bubble Lead have the BubbleMan attack bounce underwater. I'm still partial to 3 projectiles vs 2 though. Search Snake may be weaker but it can scale walls.
me from earlier wrote:AstroCrush should break all blocks
D-Man wrote:I like the sound of this, though I think TNT Blocks should only be reserved for fire-based weapons.
You're right. In MM8 AstroCrush couldn't ignite nor destroy TNT blocks.
I don't think the devs will try to implement the Double Gear system in MMM
I dunno man... They've been awfully secretive with the MM11 weapons, showcasing MM10 weapons in updates but keeping MM11 behind the dev curtain. It could be 8-bit Mega Man sprite changes they're keeping secret... Either one sounds exciting to me.
(since there are over 60 weapons, and reserving it for the MM11 arsenal would be a waste).
Not necessarily.. The devs try to respect the standards set by the MM games and since there was not a double/power gear system in those games then it's totally justifiable to not add that option to those abilities.

It'd be crazy if they did though (starts imagining what the devs would do if they power geared old weapons).

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D-Man
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by D-Man » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:25 am

I was replaying ARNF recently, and I happened to get a relic that gave me another idea for Centaur Flash.

The relic in question is the Phase Shell, which works by pressing the jump button while holding the direction you want to warp to. If successful, the player can phase past 1-tile-thick walls and ceilings given that there is enough space on the other side.
Image

In the context of MMM and Centaur Flash, this would instead work upon firing the weapon and holding the direction you want to go during the distinct flash effect. It will not work with Key Doors, but could work with other 1x1 solid objects.

The weapon will function identically to the original besides this, dealing 4 damage to everything on screen at a cost of 4 energy. For editors, Centaur Flash can be an option if they want a screen-nuke that is semi-instant, does not influence mobility too much, and still lets enemies drop pickups.

(Sorry if this is a necropost, but I didn't wan't to make a new thread just to add a small idea).

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Royalguard
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by Royalguard » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:57 am

I made a suggestion a long time ago that I believe Centaur Flash should make enemies reverse facing direction upon being hit if they survive the attack. This could be potentially useful for enemies that can't naturally auto-update their facing direction, or update their facing direction slowly, to not attack in the direction of the player. It could also potentially cause some enemies in mid-movement to immediately reverse their movement direction.

Its a very simple effect, but I feel it could be be very useful in some situations.
Last edited by Royalguard on Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Neo Cutman
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by Neo Cutman » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:59 am

D-Man wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:25 am
I was replaying ARNF recently, and I happened to get a relic that gave me another idea for Centaur Flash.

The relic in question is the Phase Shell, which works by pressing the jump button while holding the direction you want to warp to. If successful, the player can phase past 1-tile-thick walls and ceilings given that there is enough space on the other side.
Image

In the context of MMM and Centaur Flash, this would instead work upon firing the weapon and holding the direction you want to go during the distinct flash effect. It will not work with Key Doors, but could work with other 1x1 solid objects.

The weapon will function identically to the original besides this, dealing 4 damage to everything on screen at a cost of 4 energy. For editors, Centaur Flash can be an option if they want a screen-nuke that is semi-instant, does not influence mobility too much, and still lets enemies drop pickups.

(Sorry if this is a necropost, but I didn't wan't to make a new thread just to add a small idea).
I like the idea of ​​using Centaur Flash as a teleport since Centaur man can really do that.

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Blue_Bummer
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by Blue_Bummer » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:23 pm

Neo Cutman wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:59 am
D-Man wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:25 am
I was replaying ARNF recently, and I happened to get a relic that gave me another idea for Centaur Flash.

The relic in question is the Phase Shell, which works by pressing the jump button while holding the direction you want to warp to. If successful, the player can phase past 1-tile-thick walls and ceilings given that there is enough space on the other side.
Image

In the context of MMM and Centaur Flash, this would instead work upon firing the weapon and holding the direction you want to go during the distinct flash effect. It will not work with Key Doors, but could work with other 1x1 solid objects.

The weapon will function identically to the original besides this, dealing 4 damage to everything on screen at a cost of 4 energy. For editors, Centaur Flash can be an option if they want a screen-nuke that is semi-instant, does not influence mobility too much, and still lets enemies drop pickups.

(Sorry if this is a necropost, but I didn't wan't to make a new thread just to add a small idea).
I like the idea of ​​using Centaur Flash as a teleport since Centaur man can really do that.
Sounds like a great way to justify Centaur Flash and be true to it's Robot Master.

If anything these changes could be added to a Power Gear version of Centaur Flash.

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D-Man
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by D-Man » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:48 am

Does anyone think Napalm Bomb would need some gimmick to justify being a MMM weapon, or can it work just as is?

I was thinking the option to shoot it in a upward arc like Metal Anchor could help set it apart from other crawling weapons. Or maybe the explosion could be replaced with a burning damage-over-time effect, since real-life napalm is used for incendiary devices. It could have a stronger DOT than Needle Cannon to make up for its limited range.

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Blue_Bummer
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by Blue_Bummer » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:27 pm

D-Man wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:48 am
Does anyone think Napalm Bomb would need some gimmick to justify being a MMM weapon, or can it work just as is?

I was thinking the option to shoot it in a upward arc like Metal Anchor could help set it apart from other crawling weapons.
Leave it as is but give it the ability of an aimable arc similar to MMSFR Giant Axe. Either that, or increase the amount of max projectiles onscreen at once (how about 3, like Mega Buster?).



If Power Gear becomes a thing make the Napalm Bombs bigger with larger explosion damage radius + higher damage.

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D-Man
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by D-Man » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:24 am

Blue_Bummer wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:27 pm
Leave it as is but give it the ability of an aimable arc similar to MMSFR Giant Axe. Either that, or increase the amount of max projectiles onscreen at once (how about 3, like Mega Buster?).
Napalm Bomb already has an onscreen limit of 3. Other than that, I agree that aimability would make it more viable, though I'm worried things like Hyper Bomb, Wild Coil, and Wind Storm would render it redundant. And with no reverse gravity, Napalm Bomb loses its one unique trait: the ability to ignore it.

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Blue_Bummer
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Re: Centaur Flash, and other Obsolete Weapons

Post by Blue_Bummer » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:55 pm

D-Man wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:24 am
Napalm Bomb already has an onscreen limit of 3.
:oops:
Been a while since I played MM5, and I never favored Napalm Bomb. Looks like I need to play it again.
Other than that, I agree that aimability would make it more viable, though I'm worried things like Hyper Bomb, Wild Coil, and Wind Storm would render it redundant. And with no reverse gravity, Napalm Bomb loses its one unique trait: the ability to ignore it.
Like one Maker pointed out to me, is that sometimes in map creation what a weapon doesn't do can be just as useful as what a weapon does do. So looking at it from that angle I can see how a map creator might prefer Napalm Bomb over those others due to it's traits for the sake of map design.

From what I can tell the biggest thing that prevents MMM Devs from including a weapon is if it is too similar to another, or just not useful.

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